For a while now, I've been testing the EVO X map sensor in my car. The idea is to datalog boost pressure using EVOScan and the flashable ECU. This is the first baby step towards things like speed density, stock boost gauge mods, ECU based boost control...

The OBD2 cars have a 1 bar MAP sensor that can only measure up to 2.2 psi of boost and is located on top of the intake plenum. The ECU mainly uses this to operate the EGR. The EVO 10 uses a 3.25 bar MAP sensor that can measure up to 32 psi of boost. This sensor is nearly identical in appearance to the stock sensor, so it can be easily swapped in for some plug and play fun.

If you pop off the stock sensor, you'll see a space with a small hole. I believe this cavern is just an area to keep air turbulence away from the sensor so the readings are more accurate.

Here are the 2 sensors side by side. Note: the EVO 10 sensor is the one with the yellow cap on it.

No one would have a clue...

Part number for this sensor is 1865A052 and it's available for $145.16 plus shipping thru MitsubishiParts.net - Your #1 Source for OEM Parts and Accessories

Continued....

 

I'm still using the stock BCS to control boost in my car. Setting WGDC to 100% on 9Bs with the stock wastegates only netted me a 16psi spike, falling to 11 at the redline.

Felt experimental and popped out the little restriction pill from the BCS solinoid like the 1G guys do for the free boost mod. Info on that is here:

Stealth 316 - Free Boost Mod for 1991-1993 3000GT/Steath

Much to my surprise, eliminating this pill allows a lot more that I anticipated. On my first pull, leaving everything at 100% WGDC, I saw 30psi before fuel cut!! I ended up with dropping it all the way down to about 64% to get 19psi with my Forge wastegates.

Spool-wise at 100% WGDC, the new Billet 650s see 27psi by 3750 rpms. Keep in mind I'm running the stock airbox and "stock style" MAF too! Gotta LOVE these turbos!!!

Kinda scary when the tires slip in 3rd gear while you're moving... Fuel cut spoiled that fun. Although my knock sensor didn't care for that kind of fun either.

I have spool tuned a bit more conservatively now where I see 19psi by about 3500. I will play with this more after I get my replacement wideband and a fresh tank of 93.

Horsepower-wise.... The results were quite a bit lower than I anticipated but not horrible. This is the previous tune on stock turbos with the new tune on the 650s.

How about that? Not even 100hp over stock turbos.... Don't get me wrong! The car still pulls great, but it's not what I was hoping.

To be honest I am VERY disappointed in the car. Come to find out my wideband sensor is dead so that made tuning a guess... The car also has become hyper sensitive to knock. Even at measly 19psi, I can't run anymore than 11 degrees of timing due to excessive knock. I'm hoping this is just a result of bad gas from the car sitting for so long or maybe my AFRs are too lean from a lack of a rewired pump.

For now the car will sit till I get my replacement sensor and catback from IPS.

Stay tuned!

 

How about that? Not even 100hp over stock turbos.... Don't get me wrong! The car still pulls great, but it's not what I was hoping.

To be honest I am VERY disappointed in the car. Come to find out my wideband sensor is dead so that made tuning a guess... The car also has become hyper sensitive to knock. Even at measly 19psi, I can't run anymore than 11 degrees of timing due to excessive knock. I'm hoping this is just a result of bad gas from the car sitting for so long or maybe my AFRs are too lean from a lack of a rewired pump.

For now the car will sit till I get my replacement sensor and catback from IPS.

Stay tuned!

a few things, to start with you have GOT to get rid of that stock air box. That thing is a restriction and cost power with 9B's I cant even imagine how much power it's costing you now. We had a customer quite a few yrs ago that was stuck on the stock air box because he did not want to "suck under hood heat" he was running the really old DR650's and stuck in the 13's I finely talked him into ditching the air box for a stillen air intake and he knocked almost a full second off his 1/4 mile times. And that was with still using the stock MAF and a AFC. The only resin your still spooling fast with that huge restriction on your intake side is because you are pulling so much timing your combustion is still happening as the air is going out your Exhaust valves and you have SUPPER high EGT's. I bet if you had a EGT gauge they would be in the 2000+ deg F range.



Next you have GOT TO GOT TO GOT TO run more timing. even if it requires less boost on pump. Way back in the day LOTS of 3/s owners played with running less timing to run more boost on these cars with small turbos and all of them resulted in MUCH slower cars. I think way back even Adam did a big long thread about it on his car and he got way over 20psi on pump and the car was slower then it was on like 16psi and stock (piggy back advanced) timing. With TD-04's your going to want your timing way up there. You car with a Stock ECU, Piggy back and the normal lots of timing would be putting down in the 460-470 whp range at 17-18psi on 93 octane. (if you piggy back got rid of the stock air box and MAS)



Next you better put a HW kit on that fuel pump, if you plan on cranking up the boost past 20psi.

 

keep it up, coming back to dear old Wisconsin anytime soon?

 

Not until Christmas. If you want me to come tune your car, charter me a flight from Philly to Madison. I wouldn't mind a vacation from work.

 

Not sure what you were expecting. It took Ray a lot more than 19psi plus race gas to get over 500awhp with about the same amount of stock parts as you.

Throw in race gas, crank the boost and give it some timing! (after getting wideband sorted, of course)

 

Thanks for the advice Matt! I've got a Buschur Racing EVO intake for the MAF sitting on the shelf. I've also got a MAFT on loan from JGroove which I'll be testing out sometime in the near future. The idea is to Zero out the MAFT and use the ECU MAF calibration tables to tune.

I also will be hot wiring the pump but not in the traditional method. Waiting on a hotwired kit from Summit Racing which will allow me to hotwire the pump and still keep the stock fuel pump resistor. Plan on keeping the stock FPR which is why I am setting it up this way.

 

The MAF-T with a large filter like a 8" power stank on it will help allot, sounds like a plan.

Hot wiring the pump for full 14V when the car is running is NOT a problem with the stock FPR, i have done it 100's of times. In fact I have NEVER changed the FPR on a 3/s car less I was doing a fuel fuel system with all new lines ect. And up to 700 ish AWHP there is no point in doing that.

On your timing I would not even think of running it less then 20 deg. I would run it more in the 22+ deg range.

 

PM me some dates, Im on expedia right now

 

Nice work Greg. I love your scientific method approach to tuning. Really helps everyone see exactly what things make certain effects on power, etc. Appreciate your level of detail.

 

Looking forward to seeing your results when you figure out whats wrong.

 

supra pump. I can tell you how many volts in a couple days just finished up my DR750 swap. Been busy with the house because of Hurricane Irene, havent had a chance to drive it yet.

 

Little better results today.

Fresh tank of 93 and dropped the boost to 15psi. Also kept a water bottle handy to spray water onto the innercoolers after each pull.

I'm not sure what it is about the gas around here, but it just flat out SUCKS! Anything more than 15psi and it's knock city. Even with this tune I'm still seeing 4 counts here and there. Most timing I can run is 19degrees. Would be nice to run more to keep that torque curve a bit flatter.

There no race gas nor e85 anywhere around here either BUT at work we have an unlimited supply of 50/50 Meth/Eth mix so I'm going to setup an alchy system in the near future.

Wideband still doesn't work either. Not sure what's up with that yet. Think it's my USB to serial adapter.

Stay tuned!

 

Even with the big FMIC and bigger turbos, 15psi is the limit on Todds car also on straight 93 also...

Jason

 

What alchy mixture are you spraying and what size nozzle?

(edit: NVM, I'll just call you )

 

Wow what a fail thread.

No point even talking about scientific tuning of your car when you have no idea what your AFR's are. Have you even looked at your plugs? Such a bad example for anyone to follow. Be disappointed in yourself. You are trying to blow that thing up.

I had a dead AFR for 1.5 months on my daily and I just had to keep out of it and be responsible. I also didn't waste my time wondering "whats wrong" when I know what is wrong.

Turning down the boost 12 psi and going faster is an indicator that you are doing things very wrong. Time to take a few more steps back. Just because your knock counts are low does not mean you are being smart or responsible.

 

:lol: Internet warriors are funny.

My plugs have black soot on them and the underside of my car is covered in black soot as well. Im running rich. Stock 02s are showing .97 at peak load tapering to .93 volts. My right foot stays under control unless I'm logging and I just changed my oil afterwards because it smelled a little like gas. (there was only 20 miles on this oil btw)

I don't need criticism on my tuning approach and I'm not ignorant when it comes to the "safety" of my engine. Any other concerns you have about my thread can be sent to me VIA email. Butthurt@douchecanoe.com

 

haha butthurt, good laugh

 

Its funny when people who are spoiled by cheap wb02's think theres no other way to tune, forgetting that people were going far faster than most ever will simply by reading plugs and looking at their exhaust.

Good luck getting the bugs worked out, ignore the peanut gallery.

 

Reading plugs may be a good idea on a SBC or another naturally aspirated engine, but in a turbo car with widely varying boost, timing, and fueling issues, its a recipe for disaster. Lot of good those lean plugs will be (after the fact) when often times it only takes a couple seconds of WOT on a lean mixture to blow your S&$^ up.

 

subscribed.

 

Tuning by narrowband is just too inefficient. If you want to get a good tune you need to tune using a wideband with more resolution. Matt and Ray don't make great numbers now-a-days without using a wideband to tune on the dyno. You leave to much power on the table. You can read the plugs but I only do so when I feel the tune is dialed in and I don't understand why something isn't working.

The flashed ECU has great potential and I plan to use it, but you need to have good tuning techniques too.

 

The flashed ECU has great potential and I plan to use it, but you need to have good tuning techniques too.

There's nothing wrong with my technique. In the 8 or so years I've been playing with these cars I've never destroyed an engine and with this setup I've taken several precautions to protect my motor given the very fine edge to tune with.

First off, the ECU has 3 measures to protect the motor from things like overboost, low octane fuel, high IATs and age. One is a column in the ignition timing table specifically for engine loads beyond what the motor was originally tuned for. Another is fuel cut. Then there's also a "low octane" table specifically for dealing with idiots who try to run less than premium fuel in their cars.

With piggybacks, the first 2 setups are disabled as the engine load being calculated by the ECU is no longer accurate since you're changing the airflow the ECU is reading.

Knock ignition timing retard is a good feature, but it's too slow. It only pulls 1 degree of timing for every 3 counts of knock over 7 counts (think that's right, going from memory). In the time it takes to pull timing back to a safe level, there could be serious damage done to the motor.

Being that now I'm modifying all the tables in the ECU instead of fooling it, I can now tune my car AND keep all the safety's. One being the 200+ load cells in the timing table are all set to single digits (I do this to every pump gas tune I make). This means should engine load ever get above 200 the ignition timing is so low it should help keep knock at bay.

Next is fuel cut. Fuel cut is simply the ECU checking engine load & comparing it to the fuel cut table at a given RPM. If Load is >= the value in the table, then it cuts fuel to protect the motor. I have fuel cut set for 196 engine load as my peak values at 15psi are only about 175-180. Stock it checks this table once a second. I sped it up to check 4 times a second. This check happens so quickly that during the 100% WGDC test (27psi) pull that it cut fuel before I even heard the knock alarm going off on the laptop and could react.

Say the vac hoses pop off the waste gates for some reason or when you're doing test pulls with the stock BCS and get a lot more boost than you expected, these 2 features will help protect the motor should I not be paying attention or get caught off guard.

As for tuning with Widebands, ask my customers. I tell them one is needed. It's the only way to tune for peak power. Before the turbo swap, I had a working wideband in my car. No where have I even implied one isn't needed. I'm sure baby Jesus would cry if he heard me say they weren't needed and I have to consider his feelings too.

Why have I done 2 tuning sessions with my car without one? Well, take a look at this:

What you're looking at here is the fuel table from my previous tune when the car was stock. The numbers in the table are scaled to look like a target AFR. Now just because you put that number in there, doesn't necessarily mean that's what you're going to get. The ECU has no way of knowing what your actual AFR is going to be nor does it correct for it. This table is just a number in a calculation for IPW.

Here's a log of my 290hp pull with that fuel table flashed to the ECU:

Check out how close the actual AFR matches the table. After flash tuning nearly half a dozen 3/S with a wideband, I've observed that the AFR in the table is usually within half an AFR point of what the injectors spit out.

Now, obviously I need my wideband to fine tune my new fuel table but since my wideband isn't working, I have the target set for a very conservative 10.5:1. Plus or minus half an AFR point still keeps me in safe area. Keep in mind, the car is only this rich under boost too. So until I figure out the issue with my sensor, I'll continue to check my oil and spark plugs after every session.

Before Dustbuster comes back and starts putting his well thought out twists on my words, NO i do NOT recommend other people tune their car this way. It's fine to use this rule of thumb to setup the fuel table as a base tune, but you NEED to use the wideband to correct it.

My car is fucking awesome and so are the turbos Matt has built for me. The disappointment comes from my past experiences tuning multiple 13g, DR500, 13T cars where you can run 17-20psi on pump with mid 20s timing advance and no knock. If I wanted 380whp, I'd have build this car with one of those turbos.

These turbos bring me into a whole new world. Matt suggested less boost, more timing, I followed his advice and instant 30+ hp. Obviously that makes me less disappointed in MY setup.

Course with the stock SMIC's you only get ONE pull then it's back to knock city but... When it comes time to turn up the boost, the car will be getting an air filter and fuel pump hot wire per Matt's advice again. For now the only improvements I can get in power are to fine tune the AFRs or ditch the stockish MAF.

Hope this clarifies some confusion a few might have with this thread.

 

What about Adam from texas whos gone significantly faster than anyone posting in this thread who has never had a wideband in his car...?

For people that play on dyno's im sure a wideband is nice to have to plastering all over the internet, but its hardly an absolutely necessary tuning tool.

Jason

 

Stupid question, but how did you get your setup to record wideband? I will be wanting to do something similar.

BTW great clarification. Also what all did you do to get back those lost 100 ponies? Just trims?

 

EVOScan can read the wideband thru any COM port. Eventually I wire it up to read it thru the stock ECU.

Lost 100hp? I only got about 30hp from dropping the boost 4psi and upping the timing about 10 degrees from where it was before.

 

I was kidding and referring to how bad it initially performed compared to rays dyno. You are now back up in his ballpark. I actually look forward to seeing how mine perform at elevation.

Look forward to you logging that and the intake manifold pressure.

 

Yeah, the car is a bit more fun now.

I posted up how to set up the sensors on 3STech, but I'm still deriving scalings for all the various MAP sensors out there (Omni, AEM, GM...). Then everything needs to be tested....

 

I guess I should rephrase it then. I'm not calling it a bad tuning technique just that it's not the best tuning technique. It's obvious that the lambda on the log shows a very close AFR to what's on the fuel map, but even tuning for a 10.5:1 AFR you're leaving tons of power on the table. You can run more than 15 psi on your DR-650s on pump gas you just have to alter some of the parameters you're shooting for.

I highly recommend a wideband when tuning a car. No it isn't absolutely necessary, but for $150 it makes your life a hell of a lot easier. 5 times the resolution over a narrowband 0-1V band has great advantages. It's true that people in the past have tuned fast cars just by shooting for certain voltages say like .94V WOT, but you're leaving power on the table even for a safe tune. I'd rather know I'm 10:1 rich instead of oh the car is running rich but I have no idea exactly how much extra fuel needs to be pulled out.

You've already showed the superiority of the flashed ECU over a piggyback and how it has safety parameters setup that previously could only be had with a standalone ECU. I understand that you want a safe tune and I would too, but why would you not try tuning for a 11:1 to 11.5:1 AFR WOT? Maybe you already have. I'd shoot for a 10.5:1 AFR to start with, leave the timing stock, dial the AFR back to the low 11 range, start adding timing after that, add fuel if it knocks with more timing, etc until you find a happy medium between the AFR and timing you want. You would be amazed at the results you'll get with your turbos.

The only downside to the flashed ECU I was hoping to see a solution for was the stock MAF limitations. I know that an EVO MAF can be substituted but nobody yet has proven it to hit 700AWHP on a 3S. Our cars aren't EVOs and they also had problems with the MAF getting sucked into the turbos. I'd rather avoid that so I plan to use an ARC-2 for the upgraded MAF no fuel control, and the flashed ECU for all the fuel adjustments. Yes it's an expensive setup but I'll have standalone like control plus its in a simple easy to understand interface that won't take months, $5000 courses, or years of messing around with to get a good handle on it. That to me is worth it even if I end up paying $1500 that could have bought an AEM EMS 2. I won't be spending another $12-1500 getting the car tuned plus tweaks here and there when I install mods after the car has been tuned.

 

I highly recommend a wideband when tuning a car. No it isn't absolutely necessary, but for $150 it makes your life a hell of a lot easier. 5 times the resolution over a narrowband 0-1V band has great advantages. It's true that people in the past have tuned fast cars just by shooting for certain voltages say like .94V WOT, but you're leaving power on the table even for a safe tune. I'd rather know I'm 10:1 rich instead of oh the car is running rich but I have no idea exactly how much extra fuel needs to be pulled out.

Baby Jesus is crying... :lol:

Like I said, when I get the issue with the sensor figured out, I'll take care of that. The car is a work in progress and I'm sharing the progress with everyone.

I understand that you want a safe tune and I would too, but why would you not try tuning for a 11:1 to 11.5:1 AFR WOT? Maybe you already have.

Typically the number in the table is lower than the actual AFR.

I'll shoot for 11.5 when I get the sensor working and know I'm not in danger of running too lean.

The only downside to the flashed ECU I was hoping to see a solution for was the stock MAF limitations.

Working on this. JGroove donated a GM MAF and Brett donated me a MAFT for testing. What I need to setup is a real time RAM based interface which references the MAF tables real time so I can make adjustments on the fly. The Suby guys use a program called RomRaider which I believe will work if it'll let me alter the memory addresses the program uses for its lookups. There's no way I can figure out a calibration by guessing and flashing...

The idea is anyone can take a MAFT zeroed out, flash the new MAF calibration tables and turn the key.

IF I can get it figured out, it'll be the next best thing to speed density for the stock ECU. That and a lot of people already run one so the transition to a Flashable ECU will be easier/cheaper.

Tuning the stock ECU has a learning curve, but it's MUCH simpler to work with than any standalone out there. Especially since the hard part of disassembling the ROM is mostly done.

 

hey what about my car lol. I should have the race gas by Thurs/Friday, time to crank up da boost

 

How does next weekend work for you?

 

that would be great, what day are you coming in to town

 

I'm sitting here thinking about the devilsown alchy kits. They have a dual nozzle system specificly for the 3/S. Obviously I'll be using the washer bottle as a storage tank since its sleeper and there's a dash light for the fluid level when it gets low.

Since these turbos are insta-spool I'll wire it up without the progressive controller and just have it spray full on above 100 engine load. To trigger the pump, instead of using their map sensor, ill just wire it to the fuel pump relay in the engine bay. Basically the ecu will be triggering the pump in open loop.

Then to make it really sleeper I'll use black anodized braided lines so they stay hidden in the engine bay.

There's one issue I haven't figured out yet (aside from how I can afford it) and that's where to tap the nozzles. I don't know if its very wise to try and tap them into the stock plastic y-pipe... I could make some kind of metal plate that will sit inside the pipe as reinforcement but that maybe more cumbersome than not having it.

 

Since these turbos are insta-spool I'll wire it up without the progressive controller and just have it spray full on above 100 engine load. To trigger the pump, instead of using their map sensor, ill just wire it to the fuel pump relay in the engine bay. Basically the ecu will be triggering the pump in open loop.

The only problem with this Greg is that you will kind of "shock" the car. It is fine if you use the smaller-sized jets, but anything worthwhile is not going to work as well as progressive.

Nice work as usual though!

 

devilsown has a bulkhead fitting for rubber and plastic pipe. if it seals okay that would be a good way to go.

 

Awesome! I've got a spare y-pipe I can sacrifice and some thick ETFE tape.

 

we must have posted at about the same time, nevermind. good luck

about what boost are you making at a load of 100?

Matt recommended I set mine to start at 11 psi and hit 100% at 19 psi. I only had time to tune the arc2 on pump gas before I sold it but I bet Matt was pretty close. However, I could not get real specific with the arc2; I had to shoot for an average 11.6 afr on pure pump, then pull a little fuel across the whole load range, then bring the meth in. If you could pull fuel to compensate for the full spray of meth then you may be ok.

 

If I can't compensate for it with the fuel table, I think I can figure out how to activate the fuel pump relay later. Gate made some progress in that area of the code in the 94 ecu. The 99 logic shouldn't be too different.

100 load is about 0psi.