hey, im wondering is the vr-4's engine and the SL's engine the same exact engine, as in same internals etc etc, or are the internals of the VR-4 stronger due to the presence of turbo's
-Andrew

As far as I know the main difference is the pistons. (Different compression), the fuel system, and the electrical stuff is different.

 

hmmm anyone know where theres a web site on it or anything...
basically i was looking to get a SL and just twin turbo that in the future.... if it was needed i would do an engine rebuild, however getting an sl now would mean spending less money at the current time and fixing that up, instead of buying one with over 150k miles on it (VR-4) for the same price and having possible major engine problems.. anyone have any ideas, im kind of in a tight situation with about 8-9k to spend on the car

 

well, if you get in an SL and plan to TT it in the future, you're better off getting an ATX because of gearing, but if you want a manual, you'll need to put a TT manual in, the N/A manual will work but your car will die after like 120 mph, also, the Hybrid TT will spool your turbos up quicker thus quicker acceleration, but the TT engine internals can uphold more horsepower. In the long run though, if you get into some way serious power, whether you have an SL or VR4, you will still need to change internals.

 

You're saying this because of compression?

the Hybrid TT will spool your turbos up quicker thus quicker acceleration

Lol...you won't accelerate quicker with FWD.

My advice. Save your money and buy a TT. Or get an NA and be happy.

There have been several members to do some good stuff with a TT conversion. Look for members named silverbullet and mikes95RT. One of the first that I can remember is Gatecrasher.

Oh and there is a parts list for a NA to TT conversion somewhere on here.

And stay away from the auto tranny if you do go TT. Many have said it can't handle it.

 

You can find a good VR-4 or RT/TT for $8000- $9000 if you really look.

 

Take a look at this.
http://3kgt.bowtiecrawler.com/TTconv_parts2.txt

That is building your NA engine into a TT.

You can also do the swap.

 

Rebuild a blown VR4

I'm just guessing here somewhat....

I just put a used Japanese engine (<35K miles on it) in my VR4. With a new clutch/pressure plate, new water pump, new belts, etc., and labor, it cost me about $4800 total.

I suspect you could find someone selling a used VR4 with a spun bearing or something similar (i.e. needs expensive major engine work) for $2500-$3000. If the transmission is in good shape (synchros aren't bad), you could have a VR4 with a low mileage engine and fresh 60K service for less than 8 grand.

I bought my '92 last March with 99K on it for $7500. So you should also be able to find a decent VR4 without horribly high mileage on it in your price range (especially if you're willing to buy a car that's a little older).

 

Lol...you won't accelerate quicker with FWD.

bullshit ya you will
you wont launch quicker, no
but if you had a TT SL, and a TT Vr4 going from a roll, chances are the SL would pull harder cuz of the higher compression ratio; it accelerates quicker so long as it has traction

 

bullshit ya you will
you wont launch quicker, no
but if you had a TT SL, and a TT Vr4 going from a roll, chances are the SL would pull harder cuz of the higher compression ratio; it accelerates quicker so long as it has traction

WRONG.

there have been threads posted about TT conversion vs. real TT races before. the result is usually like this:

real tt out-launches and gets ahead, conversion pulls ahead by 40mph or so, at about 100mph (maybe a bit higher?) the real tt pulls ahead and walks away. why is this? better gearing on the real TT's...plain and simple.

all the higher compression on the conversion helps to do is spool the turbos faster. it has nothing whatsoever to do with "accelerating quicker" as you put it.

~matt

 

if i was to get a really used vr-4 with ~120k miles on it, what parts would be expected to be dieing or need replacing?
in otherwords, what usually fails in the car

 

exactly...spooling turbos quicker means it accelerates faster, the engine generates more HP quicker
you cant compare acceleration to gearing, that has nothing to do with the turbos or the engine
i guess it depends how you look at it, the hybrid has better accerlation from the engine, but the VR4 has better overall acceleration due to AWD and gearing

personally, i think it would be interesting to put an SL engine in a VR4 if thats possible - best of both worlds

 

A stock VR-4 motor in an SL will put down 10-15% more HP than a VR4, while weighing 350-400lbs less

With 10-1 compression, the SL will make even more power, have a wider powerband and rev faster. Of course you cant boost as high in the future

 

Acceleration in my mind means 0 to whatever. The real TT will usually get to a speed in less time right? This is from a stop which is what your talking about when racing. The conversion would get ahead due to weight I would thing until the gearing gets in the way.

Am I right in thinking this? If the higher compression engine allows more horsepower with lower pressure, then the conversion would make more power quicker because it would only need to get to like 6 psi instead of like 10 or 12? Is this what you mean by acceleration?

I still believe the TT would almost always out accelerate the NA conversion and definately the engine swap car due to traction alone.

 

tru dat :-(
SLs will never be VR4s....
i wish i had a VR4 AHHHH

 

you'll need to put a TT manual in, the N/A manual will work but your car will die after like 120 mph

im having a hard time figuring this statement out. I mean, i have a sohc and my car doesnt die until 140mph, now how is a car with 1000 more rpm and at least 2x the power going to "die" at 120mph?

 

an ATX will handle the power, how many of ya'll actually seen a TT ATX blow, EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! The truth is that our ATXs can handle up to 600 hp stock and our transmissions dont blow as quick because there's not as much stress on it due to a torque converter which actually begins to multiply the torque when you get up into forced induction, plus with a shift kit, the turbos wont quit spooling when changing gears. oh yea, we weigh lighter than you vr4s and we dont lose traction off the line because of the torque converter. We have a less drivetrain loss than VR-4s. Our gearing says goodbye to the 5-speed VR-4s up top. Actually, a 6-speed would have a little bit of trouble catching us up top especially with an end clutch upgrade on the ATX. There is also a possibility for LSDs for the autos.

I'm really sick of some of ya'll dissing the ATX cars, the fastest DSM's are ATX, and our TT ATXs are just coming out now, kdog being the first, and looks like i will be the second and after a few years of serious modding, you better watch out!

And no more crap about "the tranny will blow" gosh i'm sick of it

:ak47: ATX haters

 

I can't really see how there can be so much conjecture on this. Quite simply the SL already weighs significantly less than the VR4 henceforth if you put in the same turbos properly set up and everything in addition to doing weight reduction on the already much lighter SL now you have a vehicle that is dramatically lighter with the same amount of power. That much of a difference is too significant for gearing or any other of these factors to truly be relevant if it was just a slight white difference then yeah sure the all-wheel drive and gearing would play a role and could give the VR for the edge but if you wait reduce NSL we're talking about a dramatically drastically lighter vehicle with the same amount of power, in addition to a higher compression ratio.

 

I have an ATX.

I've never seen the auto blow with a TT configuration but that is because there isn't one. (Or hasn't been.)

It'll be interesting to see what happens to your cars.


Where did you get the 600hp figure?

What about losing traction when getting power form the turbos?

How do you know the ATX has less drivetrain loss? I know it has more than a 5spd NA. And noone has dynoed a 350hp+ ATX.

Is there even a 350+ hp ATX?

 

kdog has been running an ATX TT for a few months now and he says his tranny feels strong . . . i heard the 600hp configuration from some board members . . . you will lose some traction with the turbos but if you know where your limits are you will be fine, you wont lose as much traction as the MTX's because you wont have a sudden shock . . . yes the drivetrain loss is greater on the ATX but its like less than 1%, its like 4 horsepower, nothing big

 

kdog has been running an ATX TT for a few months now and he says his tranny feels strong . . . i heard the 600hp configuration from some board members . . . you will lose some traction with the turbos but if you know where your limits are you will be fine, you wont lose as much traction as the MTX's because you wont have a sudden shock . . . yes the drivetrain loss is greater on the ATX but its like less than 1%, its like 4 horsepower, nothing big

That is incorrect. Motor Trend wrote an article several years back using the Honda Civic as an example. They showed that with a base civic, the car produced 40 more wheel horsepower with the manual. They then went on to say, that the Civic was a perfect case because both transmissions were designed in the typical Honda fashion. Meaning, they were slightly weaker than they should be, to facilitate minimum driveline loss. I would not be surprised if the automatics produce almost twice as much driveline loss as the manuals in our cars. Couple this with the fact that automatics shift slowly, downshift slowly and violently, and so on. I would recommend the manual. However that is a matter of preference.

If you are going to use an automatic in a car with much more than stock power, you should get a very large aftermarket trans oil cooler. Automatics last 2 weeks brand new from the factory, and increasing the torque they are forced to deal with does not help. This is almost always caused by the oil getting too hot. The trans cooler is cheap and simple to install, and will make you a MUCH happier person.

As to the traction. If you are making a drag car, then buy an AWD car now. Because the AWD launching will be vastly superior ot the terrible FWD launching. If you are building a road racing or a track racing car, then obviously buy an AWD car now, because FWD is the most unpleasant experience in the track world. If your use is daily driving, buy an AWD car, because then you can deal with the rain, or snow, or any other such things with no trouble whatsoever. However, if your desire is understeer, and having to wait until you have completely finished your corner, and are 1/2 down the straightaway before being able to floor it. Then FWD is the way to go.

-- Henry

 

Re: Re: VR-4 vs. SL Engine

As far as I know the main difference is the pistons. (Different compression), the fuel system, and the electrical stuff is different.

^ yep, lower compression to be boost-friendly, fuel delivery and engine management. plus the VR4 engine doesnt have the variable induction control of the N/A engine

 

first of all, specs in magazines are never accurate, so many members on this bored have established that already, its not twice as much because N/A's have been dynoed before and while the manual was making like 170 hp to the wheels, the auto was making 165 to the wheels. Second of all, there is a thread in the general section of modifications comparing AWD TTs to FWD TTs, there are some good quality quotes in there that might make you change your mind a little. If the autos had that much hp loss to the wheels than the manuals (on N/A cars), then how come an auto with a shift kit upgrade can run the same 1/4 mile times as the manual, even better than some depending on driver, when the manual has 5 gears and the auto has 4

yea, i kow you have to throw in a tranny cooler for that or you will blow the tranny, its on the must do mod list

one last thing, i have two friends, one drives a 2001 Mustang GT 5-speed and the other drives a 1998 Honda Accord EX Auto, both stock, and from the launch, the auto slammed me back in the seat more than the manual because of loading up the torque converter

 

Ill see if i can hook us up with a video, ive got two vr-4s in the area, one is owned by a one of those ladies that wants a fast car but doesnt know shit about them, atx, and the other guy, corey, is a manual.

He is a very good shifter, his car pulls all the way through each gear hard, and hes pretty wquick about it too. yet he still says the auto will beat him in a race, or itd be extremely close...

I thought there was another thread around here having the same discussion??

And im not trying to picka fight with people, but the AWD is not all its cracked up to be, i mean race wise of course, but someone said you have no trouble in rain ice snow... thats not true, i have to AWD cars in my family, and it doesnt matter how many wheels youve got pushing power, the moment your car slips, AWD isnt gonna do you any more good than FWD or RWD. once your car slides, your car slides period. but yeah i def agree race wise, its by far more obvious to be running an AWD. but try not to think that your AWD makes you invincible on the roads...

As for me i drive a base atx DOHC, so i cant even begin to really jump on people in this forum, but thanks to mutilator (i think it was him?) my launches are excellent, i dont have to wait at all to mash the pedal, the power braking or whatever we call it, heheh im horrible on car terminology, has helped to pull me off the line immediately, and now races where id fall short on other cars, im pulling on them much faster and walking away... of course, against N/A cars

But i have heard the tt conversions arent bad at all, very good results from them, and when your pulling that much power anyways, i dont think the transmission will matter against the small ricers.

 

Ill see if i can hook us up with a video, ive got two vr-4s in the area, one is owned by a one of those ladies that wants a fast car but doesnt know shit about them, atx, and the other guy, corey, is a manual.

He is a very good shifter, his car pulls all the way through each gear hard, and hes pretty wquick about it too. yet he still says the auto will beat him in a race, or itd be extremely close...

I thought there was another thread around here having the same discussion??

And im not trying to picka fight with people, but the AWD is not all its cracked up to be, i mean race wise of course, but someone said you have no trouble in rain ice snow... thats not true, i have to AWD cars in my family, and it doesnt matter how many wheels youve got pushing power, the moment your car slips, AWD isnt gonna do you any more good than FWD or RWD. once your car slides, your car slides period. but yeah i def agree race wise, its by far more obvious to be running an AWD. but try not to think that your AWD makes you invincible on the roads...
away... of course, against N/A cars

Did you say that you know a lady w/ an auto VR4? Because that is incorrect. The twin turbos were never sold with automatics. Nice try anyway though.

Of course AWD does not make you invincible, however with the appropriate tires you do pretty well. In the wettest rain storm I can put my power down in a striaght line, wihch no FWD or RWD car with 320 horsepower can do. And yes in the snow once you slide you slide, however with blizacks, once you slide, you can countersteer, point, and shoot. OBviously, stopping, and turning is no different in an AWD car as anything else (which is what gets so many stupid SUV drivers in trouble). However, going from a standstill AWD does make you feel invincible!

-- Henry

 

Hehe, atleast he can agree. yeah from a stop the AWD does pull like a mofo.

all in all i wish i could have a RWD over this FWD... why do they even make it?? i heard it has better turning radius or something? but it just seems so sluggish, and compared to my brothers camaro, it just doesnt feel as fun. Of course if i had a tt id want a vr-4. i heard its much more inexpensive than a hybrid, of course im a lucky ass in that my parents bought my car, so i can make it into my own project once i take off from college.

 

So much WRONG info and so little time.The only tested 10:1 conversion in my book is J.B.'s Altered Atmosphere car.Low 11's with a stock 5spd. plus a LSD.In the 1/4 that car will beat many VR4's.Then you have my car which has been driven for 1 year and was built for reliability and boost.Not as fast maybe a low 13 now but I have a totally stock 5spd.From 0 to 135 the car pulls so hard you have to look way ahead on the hwy because you run out of room so fast. But when you hit 135-140 the car starts to creep.You still accell but its a a much slower pace.
Now for the automatic car.It has a lot of promise but has no long term testing.Just because the DSM tranny can hold 600 h.p. doesn't mean the 3k tranny can.Its basically the same tranny but you have a heavier car and some minor differences. It is not exactly the same tranny.I had a modified auto before I went with the 5spd and I think it can handle the power if there is enough cooling.Bottom line is the auto tranny even modified sucks up alot of power down low and the 5spd. transfers too much power to be useful with out slicks.The only problem I see is the energy that the automatic absorbs on launch is turned into heat.Eventually the h.p. it can handle vs. the time it can handle it will become mark for the auto tranny.
The FWD car will never be a VR-4.True.I would love to one day own a stock 96TT with low miles.But right now I own this car.As far as a true straight line car I see the FWD platform being the one to consistantly run single digits...eventually.You have much less weight,less driveline loss and to be honest most of the import drag cars are FWD or RWD. I also can see hacking up a beat down FWD car much more then defacing a awd car just for the sake of going fast in a line.Wrecked 5spd cars or high mile cars are in the 1000- 2000 price range giving you more money to spend on turbo's and a motor.
The truth.You could take a stripped 5spd car with slicks and a carbon clutch and add any members VR-4 motor that has run low 11's and be in the single digits.It wouldn't be pretty but I'm sure it would work.You could take the same car and build a trailored car that only has to run 12-15 passes a weekend and be a serious import contendor.This being with enough money and the right driver.