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Ninja Performance
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Just FYI, the DeatschWerks only come in sets of 4 for the DSM, but we sell them in sets of 6 for the 3S

Fuel Injectors - Ninja Performance - Affordable Performance Auto Parts

-Chris
Thanks Chris for the heads up. I was just reviewing your setup since it is very close to the numbers I want to produce. I also was looking at the HP\Torque Chart thread but there do not seem to be any elevation numbers associated with the charts. Would your numbers be better here in Houston at sea level? I was also interested in your EVOIII testing for the earlier HP and torque production. Can you ellaborate?

Can you explain why the dual fuel pump system and is it ideal? Or, if you had to do it over, would you suggest something different?

I guess we are still on topic if we are discussing fuel.

Much appreciated.
 

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Ninja Performance
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I am close to sea level, so the numbers would be the same or close enough.

What specifics are you wondering about on the fuel setup?

-Chris
 

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I am close to sea level, so the numbers would be the same or close enough.

What specifics are you wondering about on the fuel setup?

-Chris
Well, I see that you are also using a KB fuel booster. Are you really using that much fuel? Are your fuel pumps undersized or is it just added security? Why not one large fuel pump? Just trying to understand your approach to fuel delivery.
 

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Ninja Performance
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Well, I see that you are also using a KB fuel booster. Are you really using that much fuel? Are your fuel pumps undersized or is it just added security? Why not one large fuel pump? Just trying to understand your approach to fuel delivery.
I have 4 fuel pumps. I built my system before the Walbro 400 and other higher volume pumps came out. I have two in tank 341's (255 lph HP) and two in line Walbro 392's. the KB Boosta pump is only running to the in tank 341's and it is only set at +2 volts when in boost.

I run E95M5. 95% ethanol 5% methanol. It requires almost 45% more fuel volume than 93 octane or race gas. I run 36psi boost and that makes 835AWHP 747AWTQ. I run 160 lb ford injectors. And they are about tapped out.

So figure how much fuel a 160 lb injectors can flow at 90% IDC then add 40-45% more fuel volume for the E95M5. It's a lot of fuel.

Now that there are higher output pumps, if I were to do it again I could get away with 2 pumps instead of 4.

-Chris
 

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twinturbo Nitrous time
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Thats about the best thing I have read on here yet I think...Anyway Im in the middle of the hole larger turbo, not enough fuel saga right now ..So I need to lower my maf signal a wee bit... looking to buy afc and injectors right now according to your calcuations i should get the smallest injectors that I can safly maxout so as to not change my timing because of the over alterd maf signal..makes sence to me so what afc should I use was looking at that old 5 knob apexi super afc think that should make my minor adjustment accepidly with some 450cc or 550cc im on td04h19t no cats 15lbs boost minimum(my problem)ebc 3"exaust copper headgaskets adlustable camgears ect...sorry for the confusion lol
 

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I have 4 fuel pumps. I built my system before the Walbro 400 and other higher volume pumps came out. I have two in tank 341's (255 lph HP) and two in line Walbro 392's. the KB Boosta pump is only running to the in tank 341's and it is only set at +2 volts when in boost.

I run E95M5. 95% ethanol 5% methanol. It requires almost 45% more fuel volume than 93 octane or race gas. I run 36psi boost and that makes 835AWHP 747AWTQ. I run 160 lb ford injectors. And they are about tapped out.

So figure how much fuel a 160 lb injectors can flow at 90% IDC then add 40-45% more fuel volume for the E95M5. It's a lot of fuel.

Now that there are higher output pumps, if I were to do it again I could get away with 2 pumps instead of 4.

-Chris
Thanks. It makes more sense now. Just a matter of how long you have been at this and installing what you had available at the time.
 

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Ninja Performance
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Yeah, if I had to do it over, I would go with 2 in tank walbro 400 E85 pumps. Instead of two in tank and two external.

-Chris
 

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twinturbo Nitrous time
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A few things that I've probably said before but you never seem to have an answer to:

- Not everyone knows what to do with timing or wants control of it. Have you seen the questions some of the owners on this board ask? Do you really think they're ready for timing control and capable of of making the most of it (or even keeping their motor together while playing with it for that matter)? Most can't even get the fuel thing right...let alone fuel, boost, timing, and RPM all intertwined.

- I have one (1) fuel map that works great for all boost and fuel quality levels. I haven't touched my adjustable fuel pressure regulator in months.

- 100% IDC timing is not retarded enough to slow the car down all that much. The results speak for themselves. 552 at the wheels at 23.2 psi, 127.6 mph at 25.6 psi, and it will probably running about 129.3 once I get a clean pass at 28.6-30.5. You ran 119.7 mph? Timing control, C16, and DR650R's? I was going 119.9 years ago. I had 210 lbs on you at the time so you are defintely going faster (relatively) but my car had alot of handicaps that negate that 210lbs....no timing control (a massive handicap from what you've said), unclipped 15G's, 105 octane, 550's, an ARC2, and no datalogger whatsoever...just tuning off of my butt dyno and trap speeds. You'd think the difference would be larger seeing how you're telling us timing control is essential.
Give it to him lol I like your style....
 

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twinturbo Nitrous time
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so how much boost and fuel pressure you think I can/should run with pircision injection 550's ,19td04h turbos, copper headgaskets , modifyd fuel system with mannual fpr,stainless valves ,free flowing exaust, factory steelcrank ballanced with stock ballanced rods, cs aftermarket pistions, hks elctronic boost controller,
3sx adjustable cam gears and safc of your choice. any numbers or insight on this set up would be great just got it togeather now I have to tune it runs great till I hit about 15 psi than bap bap bap lol...I just got the injectors I havent tryed them yet otherwise thay are stock tt
 

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Is this wheel or Crank HP?
Thanks!

Wow...1st post is so old I can't edit it.

***2012 EDIT***
E85 as follows (0.78 BSFC, 9.68 lbs/hr to cc/min conversion)

550cc 350-437HP (326-447 w/adjustable)
580cc 369-461 (344-471)
650cc 414-516 (385-528)
680cc 433-540 (403-553)
720cc 459-572 (427-585)
750cc 478-596 (445-609)
780cc 497-620 (463-634)
850cc 541-675 (504-691)
950cc 605-755 (563-772)
1000cc 637-794 (593-813)
1050cc 669-834 (623-853)
1150cc 733-913 (682-934)
1250cc 796-993 (741-1016)
1450cc 924-1152 (860-1178)
1600cc 1019-1271 (949-1300)
1650cc 1051-1311 (978-1341)
2000cc 1274-1589 (1186-1625)

*** End 2012 EDIT ***
 

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Wow dude great write up. I actually joined to get a insight and ask what size injectors to go to. In your eyes what would you recommend. Im trying for 400-450 hp atw.
My mods
Twin 19T turbos but on standard exhaust housings
Standard ecu being flash tuned
Full turb back exhaust.
Fuel pump
FMIC
HKS twin intake

This will be on 98 octane fuel.

I was told 660cc injectors, but as your write up figures say i think it maybe lesser.
Thanks for your help
 

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I maxed out a pair of DR TD04HL-19Ts on RC550s but I ran meth injection with twin d14 nozzles on 75%meth / 25%water mix.

With flash tune you should be able to run any size injector without major issue. I would say go for 660cc or possible Injector Dynamics 750cc.

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 

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under the knife again
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This is such a great thread. Makes me think an afpr is more beneficial than a piggyback on a bpu 9b car.

Car has ran solid for break in and readying up to do a little tuning. Just getting prepped.
 

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Sorry to rez a thread, but going by those numbers, would it be safe to say 1000cc injectors are just too large? I mean they're the same price as smaller ones and I have no idea what power I'm gonna end up with (rebuilding literally the entire engine from the ground up with nothing but the absolute most power possible in mind), so should I stick with my plan for 1000s or go smaller?
 

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Sorry to rez a thread, but going by those numbers, would it be safe to say 1000cc injectors are just too large? I mean they're the same price as smaller ones and I have no idea what power I'm gonna end up with (rebuilding literally the entire engine from the ground up with nothing but the absolute most power possible in mind), so should I stick with my plan for 1000s or go smaller?
The theory behind this thread is all about making a piggyback work properly with a stock ECU.... If you are using a standalone, or Chrome Software, you can run any size injector you choose...
 

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Great thread, read all 26 or so pages.
So let's bump it up.

I know they're are tons of new tuning options available, standalone this, e manage ultimate that, haltech, chrome, motec, megasquirt... the list continues.
But 10 years ago when this thread started, there weren't nearly as many options, and the Internet was just getting started. Before the days of aem v1, or hks fcon, and so on, great power was made.

So here I am, just getting my 3s back on the road, haven't cracked 6psi yet, letting her remember to be a car again. I love how well she drives, I've got a cam, heads, headers, ls6 swapped rx7, I can go fast if I want, but I smile more driving this old 3s with the exhaust hacked at the cat lol.

I like the way the stock computer takes care of things, I like how it's going to start everytime, the ac works, ect. I always wanted to build her to between 350 and 450 whp, so I started digging around on how to make this happen. Not really even sure how I ended up here, but I did.

Now my experience with the walbro, it's capable of close to 100psi. Begi (pretty sure this is a corky bell run shindig) makes a variable rate fuel pressure regulator. This means you can adjust the fuel rate per pound of boost that fuel rail pressure increases. My empirical data on this is we made 190whp with this fmu(so they're named) on stock miata 245 cc injectors at 11 psi with an mp62.

That being said you could get stock injectors 360 to act like 440s with a 2:1 rate, going up to 20 pounds. You'd be close to 85 psi rail pressure (although I think it'd atomize pretty well).

This is all fine and dandy, not trying to tell you guys to blow stock injectors to kingdom come with a million psi, just giving another alternative to the standalones. Same principle can be used to dial back some of the bigger injectors at lower base fuel pressures for idle stability and less part throttle crusing while still maintaining their peak flow numbers in boost.

Current plan for my car is to slap one of these on and some preturbo water/meth, and see what I can do with some stock turbos. I'm not gunning for 10s like the 9b record, but I bet I can get them to hold close to 15 to redline, might add a second stage to actually lower intake temps (ridiculous how hot our engine bays are btw).

Anybody know the stock weighr 9b record? I've been 8.1 at 84 in the 8th, 1.7 60.
 

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Nothing like resurrecting an old ass thread!!! Very interesting information though, I just had a quick question and hopefully an easy answer on this. When talking about all of this, is the implication you are running a piggy back fuel controller or you are letting the stock ECU handle everything by more accurately loading your IDC based off injector size FRP? Would you still need a different MAF / MAS etc...
 

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Nothing like resurrecting an old ass thread!!! Very interesting information though, I just had a quick question and hopefully an easy answer on this. When talking about all of this, is the implication you are running a piggy back fuel controller or you are letting the stock ECU handle everything by more accurately loading your IDC based off injector size FRP? Would you still need a different MAF / MAS etc...
The whole point of this thread was the art of making a piggyback work... Regardless of what airflow sensor you may be running,(some people run MAFT and GM MAF, some run stock, some run ARC2 and Ford MAF.) Your goal is to size the injectors to mimic the factory load curve, and produce a desirable timing curve.
 

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The whole point of this thread was the art of making a piggyback work... Regardless of what airflow sensor you may be running,(some people run MAFT and GM MAF, some run stock, some run ARC2 and Ford MAF.) Your goal is to size the injectors to mimic the factory load curve, and produce a desirable timing curve.

Ok so that makes a lot more sense, effectively sizing the injectors and IDC with the piggy back fuel control and you can skirt around needing the MAF adjustments to control the timing curve? Without over simplifying it.. thank you!
 
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