Dog box and billet tcase

 

Spend almost my whole budget with no power upgrades crazyy. Mines a 5 spd anyway and as far as I know they don't make a 5 speed dog box

 

Dr750. Clutch. Injectors. Pump. Electronic boost controller. dsm side mounts. Down pipe. Gm maf & maft. chrome ecu and a tactrix 2.0 and atleast $600 bucks for a tune to be safe. wideband

 

That sounds like a good mod list right there for a fun to drive street car.

 

My lower engine block thats for sale lol.

 

Do a motor up then do upgrades

 

If there is nothing wrong with the motor now I would leave it alone.

What yr is the car and whats the miles?

 

I had been looking at the dr split second fuel controller and maf kit. This is bigger then a gm maf right. Would it be better?

 

The Split Second ARC-2 is by far the simplest way to tune these cars. I can tune a car with one in 5-10min. And it supports big power too my 8 second car had one on it.

 

Just give snake skinner 7k and he will send you what you need for 10 seconds then ?

 

If his car is 100% stock now, and everything in good working order.

DR750's $3199
Turbo Oil feed lines $69
ARC-2 92mm MAS $1129
Wide band $200-$400 depending on brand
Denso Pump $339
FP Hot wire Kit $69
Injectors $540
Down pipe $150-$450 depending on brand
New plugs and wires ~$130
HKS DLI $430
RPS MAX 6 puck clutch $739
Boost controller $50- $800 Depending on brand and kind
T-case Cage $159

Race gas $100

 

Why can you tune arc2 so fast?

 

It's ridiculously stupid simple. Once I understood how it worked any fuel upgrades took literally less than 5 minutes and usually not more than 2-3 because I could pretty much guess where it needed to be watching what the car was doing. You tune your idle, then cruise, then WOT. It's that simple and even if you're new to it you can do it within 30 minutes. I'm keeping mine to run with a flashed ecu because a maf upgrade is needed past 400AWHP even if you have the Montero 482 or Evo 8/9 399 maf upgrade which isn't really an upgrade now.

If you want a one stop shop for convenience and ease order everything from Matt. If you'd like to stretch your money further you can shop around other places or get some good used deals on parts.


DR750's $3199
Turbo Oil feed lines $69
ARC-2 92mm MAS $500 used or get a flashed ecu setup for $800
Wide band $190
Walbro 400 fuel pump $130
FP Hot wire Kit $30
PTE Injectors $350
Down pipe $250
New plugs and wires ~$130
HKS DLI $430
RPS MAX 6 puck clutch $739
Hallman Pro Manual Boost controller $100
T-case Cage $159

That still leaves you some money leftover for like a 60k or 120k maintenance kit if you haven't done one or if your car is in good shape you can throw a $600 CX Racing FMIC in there.

 

I got my idle dialed in today it just seems to drift or change. The accell knob doesn't seem to change the idle much at all but it changes how the motor revs?

Sorry thread jack

 

You still don't have it dialed in correctly or you still have some minor vaccum leaks maybe even an exhaust leak too. It won't be rock solid 14.7:1 AFR but it should stay within a half a point or so when you dial it in otherwise you have other underlying issues. I noticed that if there's something wrong it always shows up in the idle first. Accel will richen up or lean out the idle if you have it set right. I can go 3-4 AFR points either direction with a few clicks. If it doesn't do anything you have the low knob set too high, your installation is bad, or you have other issues with the car.

can you elaborate? I thought they were good for over 600awhp?

You can make over 600AWHP with it or at least it should read that high but you're leaving power on the table. Ray picked up 30AWHP recently on a TD04 car switching from an evo/montero maf to a bigger gm maf. I didn't know exactly why Greg was researching a plug-n-play 3.75" maf upgrade until recently. Ray just kind of confirmed that it was a restriction. The evo and montero mafs are also smaller than stock even if the sensors count higher than stock.

I'll let you digest Ray's response and see what you think.

let me try to help you guys out here about how things actually work. ill try to make this as short and clear as possible.

when pulling through a maf, you can only flow so much air before the maf becomes inefficient. once you pass that point you start to build a vacuum between the turbo inlet and the maf. once that happens, the wastegates stay closed longer to make the same target boost because you are turning a vaccum into boost and thats far more work than turning atmosphere into pressure. the added backpressure from this added work that the turbos need to do cost a bunch of power. sooo think of a restricting maf creating exhaust backpressure and robbing power from hurting the turbo aspect ratio.

now.. for the people talking about what CAN be done on a certain maf.. if i took my 1000whp car and put a stock maf on it and i still made 600whp does that mean the maf is good for 600 and id want to choose that maf for my 600whp build?? think about that a little bit. just because someone made X hp with X maf doesnt mean it was the right choice and it probably cost them a ton of power.

the TD04 is a small turbo. it needs all the help it can get. if you choose a maf that builds vacuum at the power you are trying to make then you are shooting yourself in the foot. its like racing your car at 6000ft evevation but youre at sea level
the stock maf, montero maf, eveo maf are all in the same flow department. at 400whp they are pulling vacuum and are becoming ineffecient. you CAN run race gas, tons of meth, e85 or whatever and raise the boost and get 475 or something but its a big waste of time.

if you make 375awhp on pump on a stock maf and swap to a GM 3.75" you will then have 430awhp at the SAME BOOST.

now to the flash ecu. i LOVE the thing. i think its one of the coolest things to happen recently with these cars. i speak with Greg all the time.. ive tuned well over 20 different cars with them already. YOU STILL NEED TO RUN A LARGE MAF if you want over 400whp. theres no voodoo magic involved. the maf is a hole that is still too restrictive to make the power.. as is the evo and montero maf. Greg is working on other high flow maf options too. for now, your best off with the stock maf to 400whp and then the GM mafs after that

Ray

So yeah now it's kind of confirmed the evo/montero mafs aren't as good of an upgrade as we thought. A couple people including Greg himself doing the coding were saying that it wasn't big enough but Ray finally gave an explanation that makes sense which puts a nail in the coffin because he definitely knows what he's talking about tuning these cars all the time.

 

I logged a stock Maf, and a ported stocker with my Emanage ultimate, past 2200hz the drop-outs get really bad and I could see my output dutycycle bouncing due to the poor metering. If I hadn't had the capability to log I'd never have known!.

GM Maf responds far better, I'm only running a 3" in blow through and it's night and day difference with the accuracy..

 

the 93 cranks are forged right? i replaced my crank with a remaned 93 crank. and also are all pistons for this car forged? also what about the 2 bolt vs. 4 bolt block?

 

How old are you? I did the first big build on my vr4 between my junior and senior years of HS. I cracked 11's the next summer @ 18 y/o. 2 summers later, 10's... a few months later my (still) personal best.

8 fast years later. School and life really gets in the way, lol... still on the original engine, but i've spent pretty serious coin since late 2006 beefing up the drivetrain. Im now hoping to figure out how to finally cut 1.5x 60's... just waiting for the weather to cool off. I'm patient.

My advice... until the car is reliably running 11's, don't even think about DR750's. What if you spin a bearing? You just flushed that $3k. 13T's used to be the obvious answer because they could be had for like $1k. Today? Probably 19T's... bottom line: get the cheapest, reliable, 15G or higher class turbo.

At your age (or any age!) its all about risk management.

My first 11 sec setup:
Adapter plated td045 14b's
Emanage blue
Z06 maf (draw thru)
Rps street
Dual walbro
660cc's
Atr DP
Knockbox (now scanmaster or LCD EBC)
Greddy type r
Dsm smic's

That's pretty much it lol

 

17 I will also be doing it between junior and senior year

 

HKS DLI? Why? I still don't even have one (up to 33 psi). If his stock ignition is in decent condition, just gap the plugs (.024" or so)...

So the list in this thread is good except... use cheaper turbos, skip the DLI, use the street disk RPS... ideal 11-sec setup. Save your money for surprise failures - comp head gasket, synchros, vcu, etc.

Forgive the brevity... phone.

 

Because some people dont like changing there plugs every 500 miles lol. I no longer even sell the DLI and I still recommend it to anybody wanting to run over 25psi of boost. You can run larger plug gaps (gives a better idle). Your plugs will last way longer, spark blow out fouls plugs very fast, not to mention damages other parts on the car. It's a cheep up-grade that pays off big time, ask Ray how many cars come into his shop to be dynoed and thy cant even make a high boost pull because of spark blow out, this almost never happens when the car has a DLI in place.

As for a street disk clutch, in a 5 spd DR750 car the lo end TQ it makes along with the tall 1st gear a street disk will NEVER get him into the 10's less his car is 3000lb....

Cheeping out on small things like this is the biggest resin that people never get the results out of there cars they are looking for. If your already spending $7000 on your car why cheep out on a $400 ignition and a $40 clutch disk?

 

the ARC-2 is especially good for people like me who are always trying different things like new mixes of race fuels and w/m injection and still bolting on new upgrades. Not to mention fixing things like boost leaks, stuck wastegates, and bad 02 sensor that required a re-tune.

 

Did I miss the post where he said he wanted 10's? I thought we were building a reliable 11 second car..?

Push for 10's and he'll want a billet TC, 300M rear axles, a 300M output shaft, more than 1 walbro (or a different pump alltogether), drag radials... and I'd skip the 6 puck RPS, period, but obviously some have had good luck with it.

The 3S has a sweet spot in the 11's that's very worth savoring with the most reliable, streetable clutch upgrade on the market... is there really a can't-miss 10-second clutch out there for these cars? If its the 6 puck, why do so many of us bash our heads into walls with twin disks?

I didn't know tight gaps forced extremely frequent plug replacement. I don't exactly have a lot of evidence to refute that

Best advice I can give you? Build for 11's, retain every creature comfort, restore the car, call it good.

 

Push for 10's and he'll want a billet TC, 300M rear axles, a 300M output shaft, more than 1 walbro (or a different pump alltogether), drag radials... and I'd skip the 6 puck RPS, period, but obviously some have had good luck with it.

I have run 9's with a stock 5 spd T case with a full bracket cage, and lots of 10 second cars have also.

if he has a 18 spline shaft he will for sure need a 300M (but he will also need that to run 12's with a 18 spline lol), 25 splines are also good into the 9's, and 10's no problem.

I have run 8's on stock axles lol

RPS 6puck is the only single disk clutch that I know of that has gotten 3/s cars into the 10's and it has on quite a few of them. (as long as you buy it with a REAL RPS dish and not the way some places sell them with a RPS pressure plate and a E-Bay 6puck disk).

I have run mid 10's in a few cars with one Denso pump. And those new walbrow 400 LPH pumps flow WAY more then that, ray ran 10.6's with DR750's on one Walbro 400 on E85! and you have to run 40% more of that then gas.

10's can also be had on normal Z rated street tires, both me, Ray and others have done it.

The 3S has a sweet spot in the 11's that's very worth savoring with the most reliable, streetable clutch upgrade on the market... is there really a can't-miss 10-second clutch out there for these cars? If its the 6 puck, why do so many of us bash our heads into walls with twin disks?

The RPS 6 puck is a grate clutch IMO into the mid 10's with a 6spd and high 10's with a 5spd. I have proven that in a few cars, so has Ray.

Best advice I can give you? Build for 11's, retain every creature comfort, restore the car, call it good.

That's not Bad advice, getting these cars into the 11's is SUPER easy and cheep. I have never found another car thats simpler to get into the 11's at my elevation. I have run 11's in these cars with nothing more then turbos, a fuel pump, exhaust and boost controller on stock injectors, and dry rottes all session tires. It took over $10,000 in mods and MT Drags to my $74,000 Cadillac CTS-v to run the same time up here.

 

Oh, nvm, i see you said walbro400. Wish those were around when i built mine!!

Regardless, the hks dli and 6 puck are minor. But between those, the dr750's and arc2 (can you still find these used?), you've blown his budget and left him with little to nothing to cover surprises. You're assuming the engine is sound, I'm assuming that like most 3s's..particularly rebuilt, its a little iffy.

Are you going to pay to repair his dr750's when they get sent back to you because of boost leaks, fuel or metal contamination in the oil? Its a phenominal turbo, but not a beginner turbo... my opinion. Turbo swaps are so much fun anyway

 

Oh, nvm, i see you said walbro400. Wish those were around when i built mine!!

Regardless, the hks dli and 6 puck are minor. But between those, the dr750's and arc2 (can you still find these used?), you've blown his budget and left him with little to nothing to cover surprises. You're assuming the engine is sound, I'm assuming that like most 3s's..particularly rebuilt, its a little iffy.

DR750's are $3199, and a arc-2 is $1129... how has that "blown his $7000 budgit"?

Are you going to pay to repair his dr750's when they get sent back to you because of boost leaks, fuel or metal contamination in the oil? Its a phenominal turbo, but not a beginner turbo... my opinion. Turbo swaps are so much fun anyway

If you have a turbo car your going to need to check for boost leaks with 20 yr old turbo hoses. I Just fixed a bunch of boost leaks on my 9 yr old F350 Powerstroke. But thats not expensive at all, a pressure tester from 3sx is what $69?

If he has Metal contaminated oil he has bigger problems. Making sure a motor is in good working order before modding it IN ANY WAY is always a good idea. Have a blackstone test done on a oil sample is cheep and easy.

Like I said before, you can find these cars in grate condition with less then 50K miles for less then 10K now even gen 2's. Start with one of those cars and save your self allot of expense vs starting with a 150K mile car and having to replace everything including the motor.


Getting these cars into the 10's is SOOOOOO much easier then it was 15 or even 10 yrs ago. 10 yrs ago the thought of having a bolt on turbo that would support 600+ awhp was nothing more then a pipe dream or the butt of sombodys joke, now you can simply click "buy it now" on a web page. We have already figured out what it takes, just take a proven combo and copy it.

 

Maybe I'll take some heat for this, but personally I would not run DR750s on a stock shortblock anymore if the shortblock has any miles on it.

 

You make a good argument, like always

The 10 second stock block, billet DR turbo cars... do they have stock heads and cams? Were they running gasoline? Can you list them so we can examine the setups more critically? Lets ignore the stupid driver debate everyone loves to discredit your parts with and focus on the mod lists. I know rays red car is a great example, but lets make a list.

 

Well here is one, and the best part this guy at the time (3 yrs ago) was a total novis driver, only his 2nd time ever down a drag strip. Ran 10.96! on race GAS

Engine Specification
Turbos: DR750R turbos, PRM type R FMIC
ECU/Electronics: Autronics SM4 ECU, Autronics ignition amplifier
Engine [top end]: Totally stock! stock heads, stock camshafts, stock cam gears, stock valves, stock intake manifold
Engine [bottom end]: Totally stock! stock pistons, stock rods, stock Mk2 crank
Exhaust: CX Racing front, stock rear exhaust manifolds, custom SS down pipes, custom 3.5" exhaust to 2 x 3" tails, no cat
Fuel System: 750cc RC injectors, Supra fuel pump hotwired, Kinsler FPR, -8AN fuel line to 2 x -6AN feeds, fuel used Sunoco GT Plus 109
Transmission: RPS carbon carbon clutch, Carbon 2 piece propshaft, bell housing brace, 300M output shaft
Wheels and tyres: 17" Matrox shadows fitted with Toyo T1R's 255/45/17 daily driven street tyres at 24.5 psi with nitrogen fill


Other relevant Information

This BTW is only my 2nd ever 1/4 mile!

And here is another one this one with DR650's and stock heads/cams (and 185K mile stock motor) also on race gas not E85

finally got around to going to the track with the DR650s on my stock 96VR4

i remembered why i hate going to the tracks near me which is going to jersey(4 hours each way in jersey/NY gridlock traffic and road work) the track also sucked.. no traction at all and a HUGE problem going faster than 11.49.

i was there from 5:30 till 10pm and got 3 runs in yaaaay anyway

run 1
11.44 at 123 1.9 60ft planted on the limiter through 1st hitting fuel cut etc.

run 2
11.80 at 118 1.87 60ft missed third somehow lol

run 3
10.97 at 126 1.7X 60ft still spinning badly and game over. runs 1 and 3 they sent me to the tower and wont give me a time slip because they were faster than 1.49 hahaha super gayy.
we took some vids and had the NY boys with me for the night.

i still think its got a 10.70-80 in it if i had traction (i went 11.29 with a 1.64 60ft with less power)

dynoed right before i left at 523awhp 579awtq and weighed 3825 at the track

mods...
take stock car and add

DR650 billets
550 injectors
walbro pump and hot wire
afc/maf translator
rps clutch
down pipe no cats
manual boost control
hard pipe kit
shiney stuff

if its not listed here.. its stock

 

And also, as long as you're content with 10's and don't weld the center diff, you're right that the stock parts can and have supported them. You just need to avoid wheel hop or even bad wheel spin and hope the tcase doesn't pop. Braces really aren't enough on that front, but I digress.

 

Arent Dr750s very hard on the main bearings ? I heard they flatten them out and spin them because the torque curve is so high for such little time. But thats what i heard maybe snakeskinner or someone can elaborate on this.......

 

lolol that would be news to me.

Got to love 3si "those TD-04 turbos make to much power too fast they will flatten your main bearings"

That sure sounds like haters trying to hate in any way then can. Too much proof there good for them to keep falsely saying there bad, now there so good they will destroy your motor.

Good old 3si, never going to change.

 

Main bearings get ruined from incorrect tune. If timing is not adjusted correctly and it ignites the mixture too early the pressure in the cylinder is pushing against the piston which is still coming up. This puts huge strain on the rotating assy. If your lucky it only does the bearings. If your not lucky it can bend rods snap cranks etc etc

 

That's due to excessive timing, if its even a legitimate phenomenon. Which is why I'd go with the emanage blue over the arc-2... oh, 10 year old debates...

 

I'm not hear to argue with you. All I said was I wouldn't run these turbos hard on a stock used block.

You tried to make my case earlier sound like internet horseshit, so I just wanted to present my side of the story.

 

First off my reply was not to you it was to pimprn.

And I understand, but saying things like "these turbos make power to fast so they will wipe out your mains" have consequences. There are people that will take that to hart and not buy them because of that even with out knowing all the facts or lack of. To you it's noting more then a post, but to me it's my livelihood. How would you like it if you went into work today and your boss told you that you were not going to get paid this week because somebody on the internet hold him not to pay you? lol

 

I agree with both of you.

If you are going to put premium turbos in a car why not have the best parts in the engine you can have. I doubt an engine built by ray has any significance of protecting your main bearings from abnormal wear and abuse though. Benson had an engine built by ray that wasn't fail proof and had to be replaced. The blame was placed on the tune. The second one is just sad but again tune was the blame. As long as the clearances are correct it should be good to go, of course that is as long as the tune is sound. Stronger internals ie rods, pistons, and crank are a good start to having a motor that lasts.

http://www.3si.org/forum/f174/need-legal-advice-578705/

http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/some-things-still-amaze-me-600122/

The 750's will make crazy power but there are side effects that will have to be managed. This is something that needs to be accepted when entering this power level with fast spooling turbos on a small displacement engine though. This is not a bash on the 750's because I have a set on my car and enjoy them very much, I do feel they are not an entry level turbo though.

Jeff

 

Jeff,

Don't take this as a fight, I am just genuinely curious what could be wrong with my tune?

It isn't like I kept adding timing until it blew up. I ran stock timing and the only thing I did was get afr's decent and boost was not crazy either. If someone can show me what was wrong with my tune I'd be excited to hear it.

If only one guy in the country can tune the thing then maybe I am in the wrong platform.

 

I bet you have simply fell victim to the same thing that is seems so many other E85 runners have in all kinds of platforms, simply not knowing what you are getting at the pump and knock sensors dont seem to realy work with E85. I was just talked to a guy the other day with a CTS-V Cadillac running E85, 14psi of boost, and 26 deg of timing he had been running it that way for over a yr with no problems. Went and filled up one day and the first time he hammered it on that tank of E85 he broke a chunk out of a piston. At least on gas there are inspectors that go around (but not as often as they should IMO) testing the octane of the gas at gas stations to make sure it's really the octane marked on the pump. as far as I know octane of the E85 being sold is never tested because it's not even marked on the pump, and I have seen plenty of people that have even tested pump E85 and it ranged from E60 to E90 really and it was all marked "E85"

No way to really know for sure what happened to your motor, hell the aftermarket bearings you put in there could have just been bad who knows.

 

Why not 650s with weight reduction? Weight reduction is free!

 

heck for most people I still say DR650's are a better choice. They meet the needs and wants of most, and there much cheaper then the DR750's. They run lo 11's easy and have run high 10's in a full weight car on normal street tires.