Do you race often? Do you like just going insanely fast when you feel like it? It really depends on what you like to do. I don't race often, so choosing turbos was not really the best choice for me, I am more of an audio guy, should have spent that money on audio, and got some nitrous. It really depends on what you do. My 2 cents.

 

I've had a lot of time to think lately, especially since I promised myself not to mod the car for the rest of the year and this is one of the things that has crossed my mind. For the FWD platform, which would be a better mod, turbos or nitrous?

I have run this question through my head a few times within the past week, coming up with the pros and cons of each. Here is my list:

Turbos:
*Pros
1) Power is always available
2) Efficient and flexible
3) Able to make more power by going with different setups

*Cons
1) Decreased gas mileage
2) Expensive
3) A lot of work, and can run into many problems during and after install
4) Not as reliable for daily driving

Nitrous:
*Pros
1) Tons of power at a cheap price
2) Easy to install
3) Get to keep your good gas mileage
4) Great for daily driving
5) Can be run on a stock fuel system

*Cons
1) Have to pay to refill the bottle
2) Less potential for maximum power (reliably at least)


So, what would you choose? Let's discuss. I will give my thoughts after some people post in the thread. I don't want to skew the opinions of others by giving my preference in the first post.

Turbo-Pro's

4) can be made as fuel efficient as an NA
5) Great sleeper, as the exhaust is quiet
6) Power is linear, coming on smoothly and quickly

N2O-Con's

3) power is abrupt, which will wreak havoc on motor internals
4) Better chances of blowing up
5) A good, safe setup is very costly ($800-$1500)

I thought about N2O before choosing my turbo's but for a daily driver the turbo's is the better choice IMHO as the extra power is very nice, and it's not like you are using the power all the time, so it is truly only there when you want/need it.

 

Don't think I'm an idiot if I'm wrong, but doesn't nitrous cause severe premature wear on an engine? I have always heard that once you put nitrous on an engine and use it regularly, expect to replace your engine in about 2 years, or 1 year if you get on it a lot. Please correct me if I am wrong, I love to learn about stuff like this. BTW, Tyla, are you going to NOPI Nationals? I'll be there!

 

Don't think I'm an idiot if I'm wrong, but doesn't nitrous cause severe premature wear on an engine? I have always heard that once you put nitrous on an engine and use it regularly, expect to replace your engine in about 2 years, or 1 year if you get on it a lot. Please correct me if I am wrong, I love to learn about stuff like this. BTW, Tyla, are you going to NOPI Nationals? I'll be there!

No nitrous can be good for your engine as long as you tune it right, its nothing more than really cold air. If you are running more than your engine can take then expect so bad results.

 

No nitrous can be good for your engine as long as you tune it right, its nothing more than really cold air. If you are running more than your engine can take then expect so bad results.

Chud is right. Because of the initial impact on the internals when the spray first hits, your engine life WILL be decreased. The power of using N2O is not linear, and will cause stress on the motor that turbos, superchargers, etc won't cause.

 

Nitrous works in the same way forced induction does. It increases air flow (I think more through density) and requires more fuel to utilize it. Using nitrous properly requires just as much tuning as a turbocharger. What a lot of people who slap on the bottle don't realize is that by using nitrous, other than the sudden boost of power, their car is suddenly running very lean. So, just like a turbo application, your engine will eventually vomit up its internals in some beautiful feat of automotive death.
Also, with nitrous you have to refill the bottle every time it gets empty, but a turbo is a one time sum. Eventually the two costs will even out and if you have the car long enough, the nitrous becomes more expensive. When this happens depends on how expensive it is to refill your bottle, if you blow up your engine, and how long you have the car.
Like 3kgtslflip said, it depends on what you want the power for; racing or daily driving.

 

Nitrous doesn't increase airflow at all. It increases the amount of oxygen in the cylinder (N2O is 33% oxygen, whereas atmosphere is closer to 12% or 8%I think). More oxygen = more burn = more power. Just clearing that up.

 

Turbo-Pro's

4) can be made as fuel efficient as an NA
5) Great sleeper, as the exhaust is quiet
6) Power is linear, coming on smoothly and quickly

N2O-Con's

3) power is abrupt, which will wreak havoc on motor internals
4) Better chances of blowing up
5) A good, safe setup is very costly ($800-$1500)

I thought about N2O before choosing my turbo's but for a daily driver the turbo's is the better choice IMHO as the extra power is very nice, and it's not like you are using the power all the time, so it is truly only there when you want/need it.

I do believe that a TT can be made *almost* as fuel efficient as an n/a (slap on bigger turbos and injectors and this isn't true) but I have yet to see ANY TT conversion that is making the good gas mileage in the city/highway that my n/a ATX is.

And I do agree that a safe nitrous setup is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as a "good, safe" turbo setup. Those can get around the $2000-3000 range, which is money I simply don't have.

I'm not too sure I buy the argument that nitrous is so dangerous that nobody should use it. A properly tuned nitrous setup could last for years, but the fact that so many people get a nitrous kit without knowing how to use it blow up their engines in a quick fashion, this tends to give nitrous a bad reputation.

Furthermore, turbos put constant stress on engine internals, whereas nitrous only puts this stress on the motor when activated, so IMO it tends to equal itself out.

However, I am a fan of having power at my disposal whenever I want it. I would consider myself a casual racer who doesn't need 10 second passes down a 1/4 mile track to satisfy his ego. I like speed, but I like reliable speed more.

If I did do a turbo setup, I would want to go with a single. The idea of utilizing USED parts from a TT doesn't float too well with me, which is probably why I am leaning more toward the nitrous route right now. But I love the idea of a turbo engine and am open to any ideas on how to do a reliable turbo setup on a budget.

Chudfather - I am probably not going to go to NOPI. I can't remember what weekend that was but I think I had a conflict in schedule. We need to have an Auburn/Montgomery meet soon though

 

Too bad no one seems to produce (that I can find) a variable output nitrous oxide system; It would be cool to have a system in which the jets are electronically controlled to "ramp up" output over time. That way the engine wouldn't get slammed into high hp output... you could also probably do it with a pressure regulated system: As the nitrous lines pressurize the nozzle valve gets forced open a little at a time, gradually increasing nitrous/fuel output. I've done some casual googling this morning, but I can't seem to find anything like this available.


Templar

 

Too bad no one seems to produce (that I can find) a variable output nitrous oxide system; It would be cool to have a system in which the jets are electronically controlled to "ramp up" output over time. That way the engine wouldn't get slammed into high hp output... you could also probably do it with a pressure regulated system: As the nitrous lines pressurize the nozzle valve gets forced open a little at a time, gradually increasing nitrous/fuel output. I've done some casual googling this morning, but I can't seem to find anything like this available.


Templar

There are kits that are regulated by fuel pressure. Zex seems to make the best kit for this, which is the brand I would go with if I did a nitrous setup.

 

Too bad no one seems to produce (that I can find) a variable output nitrous oxide system; It would be cool to have a system in which the jets are electronically controlled to "ramp up" output over time. That way the engine wouldn't get slammed into high hp output... you could also probably do it with a pressure regulated system: As the nitrous lines pressurize the nozzle valve gets forced open a little at a time, gradually increasing nitrous/fuel output. I've done some casual googling this morning, but I can't seem to find anything like this available.


Templar

They are out there - you ain't getting one for less than $1000 though (which is the least I would spend on a nitrous system).

 

They are out there - you ain't getting one for less than $1000 though (which is the least I would spend on a nitrous system).

Do you mean least or most?

Templar

 

I do believe that a TT can be made *almost* as fuel efficient as an n/a (slap on bigger turbos and injectors and this isn't true) but I have yet to see ANY TT conversion that is making the good gas mileage in the city/highway that my n/a ATX is.

Gimme some time and I'll prove you wrong. Just need a fuel controller...

And I do agree that a safe nitrous setup is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as a "good, safe" turbo setup. Those can get around the $2000-3000 range, which is money I simply don't have.

And how much do you think a GOOD nitrous system is going to run you? If you're going to spend $300 and think you got a good system then I don't want to hear it when you scatter your lower end

I'm not too sure I buy the argument that nitrous is so dangerous that nobody should use it. A properly tuned nitrous setup could last for years, but the fact that so many people get a nitrous kit without knowing how to use it blow up their engines in a quick fashion, this tends to give nitrous a bad reputation.

Agreed - you're going to spend a large amount of cash tuning a car to run nicely with nitrous and have the dual personality to run on pump gas. Even well tuned N2O motors will blow relatively easy, as all it takes is a little backfire in the intake to blow the motor to bits, and intake backfires are not rare. But properly tuned will give you a solid 20-30K on a good N2O motor

Furthermore, turbos put constant stress on engine internals, whereas nitrous only puts this stress on the motor when activated, so IMO it tends to equal itself out.

So when I'm cruising along the highway building 0 boost the turbos are hurting me? How so? (yes, I know that intake temps will be slightly higher than ambient but nut much when you're not building boost)

However, I am a fan of having power at my disposal whenever I want it. I would consider myself a casual racer who doesn't need 10 second passes down a 1/4 mile track to satisfy his ego. I like speed, but I like reliable speed more.

Completely agree - I live in Detroit, and that's the way it is - plain and simple.

If I did do a turbo setup, I would want to go with a single. The idea of utilizing USED parts from a TT doesn't float too well with me, which is probably why I am leaning more toward the nitrous route right now. But I love the idea of a turbo engine and am open to any ideas on how to do a reliable turbo setup on a budget.

Talk to IPO, I'm sure he could come up with something for you in the way of a nice turbo setup, but it ain't gonna be cheap because of the fabrication required and the parts that would have to be bought.

I'm not trying to sound aggresive or overly flamboyant here, I'm just stating facts. No harm is intended in any of this.

One thing that hasn't been answered yet that would make this entire argument simple: What kind of HP numbers are you looking to get?

 

Do you mean least or most?

Templar

least - as I just stated in my other post a cheapy $300 system is a sure-fire way to learn the internals of you motor after they become external.

 

Gimme some time and I'll prove you wrong. Just need a fuel controller...

No doubt about that, just the fact that it has yet to be done shys me away.

And how much do you think a GOOD nitrous system is going to run you? If you're going to spend $300 and think you got a good system then I don't want to hear it when you scatter your lower end

Approximately $1000 for a good system. But Zex sells a system that regulates itself off of fuel pressure for under $600, so the $1000 is after all the accessories I would buy, such as a purge kit, pressure gauge, and remote bottle opener.

So when I'm cruising along the highway building 0 boost the turbos are hurting me? How so? (yes, I know that intake temps will be slightly higher than ambient but nut much when you're not building boost)

Not hurting you when you aren't boosting. But yes intake temps will be slightly higher. But other than highway cruising you will be building boost unless you have an incredibly laggy turbo setup.

Talk to IPO, I'm sure he could come up with something for you in the way of a nice turbo setup, but it ain't gonna be cheap because of the fabrication required and the parts that would have to be bought.

Not cheap at all. I'd have to buy my own piping and then I'd have to bend it and either a) get it to fit with different types of clamp fittings, or b) weld it (something I don't know how to...yet )

I'm not trying to sound aggresive or overly flamboyant here, I'm just stating facts. No harm is intended in any of this.

No offense taken. I wish more posts on 3si were like this.

One thing that hasn't been answered yet that would make this entire argument simple: What kind of HP numbers are you looking to get?

Nothing too crazy. I was looking at around 80-100hp off of the mod individually. I've been thinking of having my heads ported while I replace my valve stem seals which would help tremendously as a supporting mod.

 

Bro I think Nitrous will cost you more money in the long run then the TT Swap! You'll have to refill a bottle all the time. You'll have to worry about breaking something once you activate it. I've had several freinds with small shots and well tuned systems but they hated it. They had to have a 2 stage system to keep up with the guys that built power evenly. Then when you want to go faster instead of opening up your turbo for boost you'll probably want more shot! More shot will be more N20 used and a bigger shock for your engine. My boys dad had a 350 we used to love with 200 shot of N20. I know its a lot but still. He bent his crank after much use of n20. n20 will not cause as much stress if you use your supposed Zex system. If the power comes evenly and in a nice flow then your straight. But I think the sound of the Turbos, The sound of the SSQV, and the option to up your power with either a hit of a couple of buttons or the turn of a bleeder valve Are Beautiful. Turbos Sound great and replacements if they go bad can be found for cheap. I Think everybody can make there own decision but if you were to leave it up to me I'd stay with a turbo due to the luxury of a beautiful setup and bragging rights on many other cars. Plus with my setup I can't believe how beautiful 3rd gear feels when your on the highway and your car goes 120+ in it.

 

Not hurting you when you aren't boosting. But yes intake temps will be slightly higher. But other than highway cruising you will be building boost unless you have an incredibly laggy turbo setup.

Not ture at all. A month ago I had do drive my dad in my car to an appointment (they STILL don't know I'm TT now) and the ENTIRE drive up there I was able to stay out of boost. It's really not that hard. It's called not pushing the gas past 1/4ish throtle. If there is no load on the motor (ie- in netural or when driving easy) you don't build boost. Hell I can even stay out of boost ( 0 lbs) when going up a hill just by varing the throtle slightly. So you can drive pretty much like you are NA all you want. Its just a matter of self control. The nice part about being TT is just that. You can still drive "like" your still na, but then when you hammer it, you realllllly get up and go.

-Gary

 

Not ture at all. A month ago I had do drive my dad in my car to an appointment (they STILL don't know I'm TT now) and the ENTIRE drive up there I was able to stay out of boost. It's really not that hard. It's called not pushing the gas past 1/4ish throtle. If there is no load on the motor (ie- in netural or when driving easy) you don't build boost. Hell I can even stay out of boost ( 0 lbs) when going up a hill just by varing the throtle slightly. So you can drive pretty much like you are NA all you want. Its just a matter of self control. The nice part about being TT is just that. You can still drive "like" your still na, but then when you hammer it, you realllllly get up and go.

-Gary

Well of course if you drive like grandma you won't hit boost, but who wants to creep up a hill under 1/4 throttle? Certainly not me.

ES 3000TT - I agree. I love the sound of turbos and the bragging rights associated with it. On the other hand, I could make about 16 1/4 mile runs off a 10 lb bottle though, so that's really not too bad.

Trust me, I know that turbos have the ability to make much more power, I'm just trying to decide which would be more practical for a daily driver.

 

Yeah I guess NOS not (N20 sorry thats nitrogen!!!) My bad! would be better for you. But the problem is when you want more speed your gonna want more nitrous I know from freinds I have. And a big shot might hurt you instead of helping you causing you more money down the road

 

Yeah I guess NOS not (N20 sorry thats nitrogen!!!) My bad! would be better for you. But the problem is when you want more speed your gonna want more nitrous I know from freinds I have. And a big shot might hurt you instead of helping you causing you more money down the road

Sorry have to do it, It's not NOS (NAWWZZZ) It's Nitrous Oxide.

And the kit is called Progressive.

A basic single hit Nitrous system can cause engine damage for any of the following reasons:

*as a consequence of too much power being added too soon
*activating the system when the engine rpm is too low ( or stationary )
*fuel supply failure ( including fuel pump and solenoid failure or blockage of the jet etc. )
*over advanced ignition timing

Progressive:
Instead of a sudden power increase, the power increase starts at your choice of power level and rises to full power over an amount of time that you can adjust.

 

Notice how I spelled it! (Nawwzzz) as said on 2Fast2Funnylooking is what I hear from kids all day at work! It annoys me when they think its the magic juice that can make there moms Caravans, Racecars!!

Sorry have to do it, It's not NOS (NAWWZZZ) It's Nitrous Oxide.

And the kit is called Progressive.

A basic single hit Nitrous system can cause engine damage for any of the following reasons:

*as a consequence of too much power being added too soon
*activating the system when the engine rpm is too low ( or stationary )
*fuel supply failure ( including fuel pump and solenoid failure or blockage of the jet etc. )
*over advanced ignition timing

Progressive:
Instead of a sudden power increase, the power increase starts at your choice of power level and rises to full power over an amount of time that you can adjust.

 

This is what convinced me to not consider nitrous. I know it was user error, but still, turbos can't do this to your car.

This is probably a repost for some.

http://www.saturnspeed.com/nitrousexplosion.htm

 

This is what convinced me to not consider nitrous. I know it was user error, but still, turbos can't do this to your car.

This is probably a repost for some.

http://www.saturnspeed.com/nitrousexplosion.htm

That was the result of sheer stupidity. If he wouldn't have left his bottle heater on, that would not have happened. I would in no way add this to the list of reasons of why not to get nitrous.

 

Sorry have to do it, It's not NOS (NAWWZZZ) It's Nitrous Oxide.

And the kit is called Progressive.

A basic single hit Nitrous system can cause engine damage for any of the following reasons:

*as a consequence of too much power being added too soon
*activating the system when the engine rpm is too low ( or stationary )
*fuel supply failure ( including fuel pump and solenoid failure or blockage of the jet etc. )
*over advanced ignition timing

Progressive:
Instead of a sudden power increase, the power increase starts at your choice of power level and rises to full power over an amount of time that you can adjust.

What is your stance on this?

Also, do you mind me asking how much it ran you for all the parts for your project? I know you went all out on it so it would probably be an insane amount, but I am mainly interested on what the piping ran you. Do you think your FMIC could be done with a simple pipe bender and some fittings to connect the pipes together instead of welds?

Also, how did you go about merging the manifolds together to get it shoot exhaust gasses to your turbo?

 

just buy a vr-4




















had to say it for old times sakes