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Discussion Starter #1
WOW! some very interesting information on here re: the use of 91% rubbing alcohol, there is talk about this in the topic "Hendrick's mod page is now updated". I figured I start a new topic about it. It's very appreciated (I'm sure others feel the same way) for you guys to share this and hopefully there is no knock.

At http://www.dragtimes.com/ it shows Jack T. ran his 15G's @ 22PSI with a 93 and 114 octane fuel mix but also had NOS on that run as well. Now, some questions, how come Jack didn't use 91% rubbing alcohol, I guess I should be asking him this. Better question would be.. Has anyone else used 91% rubbing alcohol on a run with our 6G72 engines and if so at what boost pressure with which turbos? I'm just wondering why nobody else has mentioned this before when we have had talks about preventing knock, and please nobody take this as criticism toward your course of action against it. Thank you guys for any information you can provide for me and the rest of the 3/Si members.

BTW, Could we just add the alcohol to the gas tank instead of spraying it in or would it be less effective this way? Also, alcohol is good at preventing gas line freeze, for those of us in cold weather during this winter.

Last but not least, keep in mind guys by educating each other helps keep a better image of 3/S owners and the cars. Hopefully we also get more respect in the drag scene as well , with our loyal owners out there inventing more efficient turbos, IC designs and air/fuel management, were making big strides. Keep it up Brian GT Pro!


Mario 94 VR-4

[This message has been edited by VR-4 Tissimo (edited January 06, 2000).]
 

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It is better to have someone like FastMatt and Lord_DVD explain the inner theory behind this. I would advise devising something on your own until you get the knowledge of the experts. I only got a ride in the car yesterday but even the concept is easy, a lot of precautionary must also be taken with the addition of fuel controllers, boost gauges, larger injectors and other "buffer" equipment as I call them.

Gonna try to get a video together soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Jeepers, thanks for the insight. I look forward to seeing the videos, should be very cool!


Mario
 
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Jack chose to run nitrous on his car for two
reasons. First off, nitrous (as we all know)
is a great power adder when used intelligently.(I would think this is why he used it, that is)

Besides the fact that nitrous will help you
stuff more oxygen into the cylinder and produce
more power that way, it also acts as a VERY
efficient intercooler. Nitrous as we all know
is pretty cold, freezing cold in fact. This is
probably the best intercooler there is right now.

Running nitrous and a turbo on a car is a good
combination, but everything has to be just
right, and the margin for error on this is very
small, and that's why most people dont go that
route.

Nitrous and turbo are two power adders. Alcohol
by itself would not be considered a power adder
(nitrous, supercharger, turbocharger). Primarily
we are using the alcohol to up octane, and the
second benefit is of course cooling the intake
charge (not as much as nitrous, tho) We are
trying to squeeze as much boost into the
combustion chamber as we can. The more boost you
run, the higher the octane requirements are. It
can get pretty expensive running around on VP16
all the time, not to mention harsh on the O2's -
that's where the beauty of alcohol fits in. It
works great for this purpose. Take a car that can
run 15-16lbs of boost, and throw alcohol into
the mix, and properly tuned you can now run
23-25lbs easily.

The kit on hendric's car is boost based. It's
set to come on at a certain amount of boost
and can be changed with ease. You can switch
the system on/off, change nozzles for more/less
alcohol, and 2 and even 3 stage systems could
easily be setup.

As for the longevity of motors running on alcohol
there's really not much to say. Plenty of turbo
buicks have been running alcohol setups for YEARS
with no ill side effects. Alot of them have a
similar setup, where a nozzle is welded into the
upipe and shot through the throttle body where it
atomizes. There are tons of low 10
second buicks running alcohol setups.

There arent many downsides to alcohol either, the few
that i can think of being:

1.) making sure you have alcohol in the system
2.) Knowing your limitations (boost) on the system
3.) Properly tuning the system (as with anything, really)

Just setup the system, dial it in, and enjoy that
extra horsepower you havent been able to get because
of octane limitations

Matt Monett www.dynamicracing1.com

[This message has been edited by FastMatt (edited January 07, 2000).]
 

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Thank you Mario, I appreciate it!! I must agree with Matt on the Alcohol injection. The theory is sound, and the real world application IS working.. We will be experimanting with the system more soon, and if all goes well, the system will be ready to sell.. Take care guys!!
 

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mario,
I, also, agree with fastmatt and brian...I have driven hendrick's car and believe me the alcohol system works sooooo GooD!!! we were running 1.35bar on pump gas!!! Wickedly FAST!!! hehehehe I will be getting the same system hooked up on my car
In addition to what Fastmatt said...you can add higher proof alcohol...I used to work at NYU labs and can get 120 Proof!!!! heheheh that' will give you MORE KIck and lower temperatures!!!! hahahahaha that's what I'll do!!!! and I'll smoke anybody!!!! hehehehee take care everybody!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Matt,

That was well written and I thank you for taking your time to explain. Going off what you said, would it be possible for you to add a gauge to measure the level of alcohol(something like a fuel tank meter)? It would be very useful to know when we're running low on it and perhaps add some kind of safety precautions, for example if the nozzle stops spraying(for whatever reason) the boost drops to the default 6.5 PSI of the wastegates springs, this safety precaution setup may be a little bit more tricky than the gauge but just some ideas. I like the options that you said Hendric's car has, but would like to get a meter of level added for mine in addition. O.K. now lets get to price.. How much will it cost when released and the additional meter cost as well? Also, does this have to be built to order or will they be premade?


Brian,

You welcome. You deserve some encouragement with the designs you have come up with. I have done a fair amount of research and your creations look well fabricated. I myself am very meticulous and can see when others are the same.


Dave,

LOL, that's cool that you can get 120 proof, but I think you should be drinking that instead of your car
.. (j/k). Let us know how you car handles it
Good luck!

Mario 94 VR-4
 

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While at work (can you call it that?) today I took a look at http://www.turbobuick.com and a few other sites out there. Very interesting stuff. Go to Altavista and search for "alcohol injection" and you will get a ton of good info. There are a few guys who have already added a level switch to detect low levels of fluid. If you use a radiator overflow bottle, get one with a level switch and you have the problem licked. Some people have used NOS nozzles with success, also you can get a wide variety of nozzles from MSC. Seems like most people are running orafice sizes of .030 - .060. Also fuel injection pumps seem to be popular. (around 60psi) Once I get my new boost controller done, I plan on doing a water/alcohol injection system.

Later,
Kevin
 

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FYI --- the 91% alcohol mentioned is actually 182 proof. proof is twice the percentage, 200 proof is 100%.The term proof came from the days when they checked the output of the still by burning a sample of the booz,if it would burn with a blue flame it was proof that it was ready to drink.
 

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Okay so here is another question, why can't we buy a spearco WI kit and put alcohol in it instead of water?? Not a real awesome idea, cause having it kick in when the boost hits a certain mark and the auto shut off and everything is a much better idea, but in theory if someone wanted to blow $150 bucks and run higher boost on mostly stock stuff wouldn't that work?
How about a small example- Spearco WI with alcohol instead, the larger fuel pump (the noisy cheaper one) and say 17lbs boost on 9b's... Easily done right? Could we push to 19lbs?? or are the injectors too small at that level?
From a little distance away it now looks like the best mod route goes-- K&N, Gutting cats (if allowed), Boost controller, exhaust (if the cats aren't dead), larger pump, Alcohol injection, fuel injectors, then all at once- split second, 355 turbos, and EGT, A/F, and datalogger.
Sound right??? then I guess that after you run that and either get bored or blow your motor, Good Forged Rebuild and 399's.
 
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hello

the KIT is Dynamicracing's ...


to measure the level of alcohol on LordDVD's car we used the FF washer tank witch already has 1 (turns on a light on the dash) and yes we are working on a switch that if the pump pressure drops it will auto drop your boost but it is not dun yet. As for the spearco kit, have you seen that thing? it uses like a washer pump, and I do not think it can flow alcohol (it must have a SS internals or the pump will go south in a mater of days)
we use a EFI pump that is set up for alcohol
and runs at 95 psi. The spearco kit is alot cheeper than are kit BUT you get what you pay for (are pump by it self costs way more than the hole Spearco kit) also are kit is made for YOUR car, we are making the kit to order, that why if you want to make changes to the kit we can do that (like what you want to use as a tank)

Matt Monett
 

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Ok, time to step in !

Matt already spoke about the theory to add octane to the gas and the most important thing is that we want to prevent knock caused by preigniton and detonation.

Now we all (at least some of us) know that dumping fuel into the system is often done to cool the chambers ! This allows us to run more boost with setting the level of detonation higher. Adding any alcohol to the system does this as well but even more it adds somewhat like more fuel to the chamber. Now here the question about octane steps in !
How much octane has the 91% or whatever alcohol ? Or better said ... is there any octane rating for non-fuel ? Sorry, octane rating is only given for special created fuels (gas, kerosine, ...)

Ok, now some of you know that I'm running a water injection system (ERL System 2s, 3D WIS) since this summer. I'm able to run up to 1.18 bars of boost with no knock with just water in the tank. During the cold days I was even hitting 1.25 bars without fuel cut (stock injectors, better Denso Pump) and only a little knock (pump gas). Water has the much better thermal coefficient and can absorb heat much better than any alcohol.

My problem on this thread is that
NOBODY WANT TO GIVE ME ANY DATALOG ON SUCH A SYSTEM
Why do this great developers and testers and sellers speak about a system that theoretically works but you've never ever seen any data that lets us, the customers feel safe runnign such a thing !? Have we ever seen a calculation of how much percent of alcohol is used to reduce a specific amount of knock ? Have we ever seen one of these gus showing a report about a knock sensor gauge ? I'm always getting a red head when I read how easy people can be impressed.

I CAN show everybody how more fuel or water injected to the system works. But at the same time we must say if you add an additional fuel injector and spray in more fuel does the same like I'd spray in fuel instead of water.

MY datalogs show that at 14 psi knock starts and above 15psi the timig becomes retarded due to knock. Water injected into the system increases this level close to 17psi. Please note, the O2 sensors show a good rich condition at this level and one would think that we can increase boost. No, we can't if we want to go into the danger of heavy detoantion. We need more real fuel to get a rich-rich condition and the water that mixed together provides a detonation resistance of around 120 octane.

Ok, I'm in the vent mode, because I was once ignorant enough to kill the motor. No I see the same ignorance here too. How much can we crank up boost until the rings and stock pistons blow ? Retarding the timing increases EGT, how much degrees does our system allow to be retarded without getting into thermal problems ?

If one say you can easily push it to 1.7 bars with just adding alcohol I just shake my head. Matt you know this by yourself that
a) the (stock) turbos can't
b) the (stock) injectors can't
c) the available pumps can't

We therefore have to think of a very highly modded car, say 720cc, 17G, FMIC, custom pump and such an alc.inj.system. that will finally be able to run a good 20psi of boost.

Now, I'd be more than happy to support such a system if it would work. But simply use water and you should get an even better result. Why, have a look at WRC. They use WIS since years and also the early Formula 1 Turbo cars used it. None of them used alcohol, just for preventing the water from freezing due to the very faast airstream than could cause pieces of ice in the intake trakt. I also use Methanol mixed with water and I can tell you, there is no, nada, niente, nijet gain from the alcohol.

I'm sure, if one has too small injectors spraying some more "fuel" into the chambers may help. It did not on mine AS MY LOGS SHOW.

Ok, I'm at my end and keep my mouth shot ... when one will provide us any datalogs that are comparable with mine ! I like to see a simple Spearco WI system at 17 psi, a car with maybe bigger turbos, 550cc no WIS nor AIS and any with this system. Of course if it then works I like to see a log at 20psi and 26 psi.

Before that you'll see me fighting against such expressions as I have facts !

Send any logs to [email protected] and I'll be more than happy to create a webpage for all of us to compare the results.

Happy boosting everyone
Roger
 

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Roger,

I understand your reasoning and also wonder about running such high boost. I should have my TMO datalogger in a week or two, if Hendrick would like to hook it up, I would be willing to do it. I do however think that he already had it checked out in NM (mentioned in another thread) I think we all know he is running on the edge already, if he has the money to mod it up, he has the money to rebuild it too. :) Just relax and let them learn. I know there are some people who just love to think there is a miracle cure, but we all know that if it sounds too good to be true.... it probably is. Let's all pull together and get some real numbers on this so we can all benefit. The GN guys have been using alcohol for years with no problems why can't we?

Take care,

Kevin
 
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Just for everybody's information. Today at the mini- gathering I showed everyone there that I can run 1.57bar with alcohol injection. No knock can be heard but I don't know for real if there is no knock at all but at such a high boost something can be heard atleast. I hear something at 1.28bar with the alcohol system turned off but with it on it gone. I am more than happy to datalogg or whatever, don't mind at all
So I too can know if there is a knock.

Besides.. I'm very happy running around and smoking peole
Hehehe.... and doing burn-outs. Keno saw a nasty burn out of mine at 12mph.

Go go turbos!!


[This message has been edited by Lord_dvd (edited January 08, 2000).]
 

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I didn't knew that the car is a 94 ! Are you sure that the diagnostic port is NOT at the left fuse box close to the footrest ? If it is tehre the datalogger works and you have a very early 94. Otherwise the OBDII port is under the right side of the dash and here some engineering must be done to get the TMO Datalogger running.

Also consider the MSD knock sensor that comes with a microphone to be screwed into the block. I haven't found a place yet on my car but it must be possible.

Another idea is to directly connect the knock sensor to a microphone input on a MD recorder and record the stuff. The transients should then be filtered out and the result would be the ability to create a knock sensor instrument... no that easy as it sounds.

Yes, 1.57 bars is impressive as my 1.34 bars have been ... for two weeks and then bye-bye. Just do some compression checks from time to time (every week or so, LOL) and we'll know how long the baby lasts. BTW, what pistons and rings have been installed ?
 
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Engine wise everything is stock Roger. I'll get some knock sensor and have a datalogger plugged in. My EGT reading's never gone up higher than 8.4 at 1.5psi. I drive around like this around 1.34-1.5bar everyday for 100miles. Got from NM to FL to NJ 4000miles on 1.30bar my car has 96K miles and yesterday I was at the dealer they say that everything looks 100% great!.
Anyhow, I'm having the car sent in again to do engine work (pistons,blah ,blah) and bigger turbos sometime soon. Also I'll be having at Haltech management system. A dealer here for Haltech might be interested in sponsering me their system.
 
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Roger,

When we were setting up the alcohol kit , we used a scan tool to verify everything. The scan tool that we used (DRB2/DRB3) $5000 tools, and do not do datalogging that you can print out, E-mail, or put on a disk.

As further proof, there are Top Gas Dragsters and Top Alcohol Dragsters, which do you think is faster? The Top Alcohol drag cars are faster, because they can run more boost and compression then even the Gas dragsters on 130+ octane. I know drag racing is more of a US-centric sport, and that may be why alcohol has you mystified. Most of the people that have tested water (myself included) havent been able to see much of an improvement. At best, we've been able to run 3-5 pounds more boost with water.

If you use water, great. If it works for you, great. If you dont want to use alcohol, great. But, please keep an open mind about it and let others decide for themselves. Saying negative things about alcohol when you havent tested it out only serves to spread dis-information throughout the community. There are alot of people that can get alot of benefit from running an alcohol system, just give them a chance to make up their own mind.

I have been building drag cars and racing down the track from the age of 15. I've probably raced just about everything with 4 wheels and made thousands of passes down the track. I've even raced an 8 second A-altered. This is a game that i know alot about, and truly love. If you want to tell me about F1 cars, I will sit down and listen, because you probably know a hell of a lot more about it then me. I have no idea why the F1 cars only used water. Perhaps they were more interested in cooling the intake charge then using it as an octane booster. However, I can definetly say that alcohol just plain WORKS.

Also, in your previous post you misquoted me. I never stated that stock turbos could pump out 1.7 bar. I also wholeheartedly agree that i would NOT run this type of boost on stock injectors and a stock fuel pump. When the subject came up, we were talking about Hendricks car which has:

1. GT355 Turbos
2. 720cc injectors
3. HKS fuel pump.

With those pieces of equipment, a properly tuned fuel controller, and a good alcohol kit, running 1.7bar is possible (on pump gas, even).

Thank you and good day

Matt Monett www.dynamicracing1.com
 
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