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Discussion Starter #1
which one is better? what i mean is what are differences, i know that the mbc is cheaper and if u want to change the exhaust u have to pop the hood. but honestlyi wouldnt mind that because who changes their boost while driving? anyway, EBC looks cool and all but where would u put it? and is it really worth all of the $$$. thanks a bunch, im already planning on getting the HKS turbo timer 1 so that will be an extra screen/display, i really dont want displays and all these buttons everywhere, not to mention the after market gauges im going to have to get! any info will be appreciated....thanks in advance
 

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Electronic Boost controllers are handy to adjust boost from the cabin. Personally, I intend on running the stock boost while I'm going from work and back, and if someone happens to jump on my tail looking to race me, I'll turn it up. Also, if you're running alcohol injection and fairly high boost (18psi+) and need to have the alcohol on to run that high, it's good to save what alcohol you have, so you don't have to run around using alcohol everytime you hit that high boost. (Keep pressures low around town until you're about to get into a race, then turn it up kinda thing). Basically, electronic boost controllers were made just for street racers who don't want to run a constant high amount of boost. If you only race at the track, I'd say go with the manual boost controller, and turn it up when you get to the track. If you do some street racing, it's probably worth it to buy the electronic boost controller. Also, if you don't like the extra displays and buttons out in the open, hide it under the lid of the center console, or in the glove box. The GReddy Profec B doesn't have a lot of buttons or displays, just two little adjustable knobs with some lights on them.
 

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I have an HKS EVC IV which is installed inside the center armrest console along with my HKS Turbo timer (see attached picture, sorry it is a bit dark-only one I had handy).

I also have the scramble boost switch installed on the outside of the console just back of the E-brake so I can push it with my right hand very easily.

This gives me the best combination I can think of:

- Very easy to set and adjust.
- EVC has fuzzy logic setup and optimizes the boost curve (you won't get that with an MBC it will just provide the set boost value regardless of how that performs).
- EVC auto adjusts (if so selected) to maintain the boost setting. Again you won't get that with an MBC.
- EVC has built-in boost/vac display. You wouldn't have to get a secondary gauge unless you wanted to (I did and replaced the factory unit in the dash).
- EVC can have two pre-sets. You can set a low value for daily driving and a high value for the track. These an be tuned to the optimum and then just selected at the push of a button. Turning off the EVC drops the boost to stock (actually to the minimum the wastegates are set for, about 6 psi) so if you need to leave it with valet for some reason they can't hot rod around. You can lock the settings so they can't be accidently changed.
- The scramble mode lets you add on a small amount of boost for a set time. You activate it by pushing a button on the unit or a remote button.
- By mounting it in the center console it does not clutter the interior but is easily accessible. Others don't know its there.

Other manufuctures have EBC's that can offer similar results.

Chris
1994 VR4
 

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Running With Scissors
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My Profec is mounted in the center console, and I like it better than the MBC I had. The MBC could hold a more specific amount of boost (can change by pounds instead of BAR incriments), but the EBC holds the boost much longer and spools up much faster. I'd say look for a used one and get a good deal from www.thepartstrader.com or www.dsmtrader.com . There's a guy on 3Si right now selling a Profec A like mine. I got mine for $250, which is about half of a new one. Once you progeam the controller, you relaly just forget about it. Don't worry about more gauges to look at. But you still need to watch for boost spikes, so get one that has an overboost alarm. My Profec has NEVER overboosted, unlike some of the others, which is why I chose the Profec A over the rest.
 

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The Wizard Of Aaahhhhh's
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I wanted, and still do want a EBC. They are just too damn expensive for something that can be accomplished by a $45.00 part. The built in gauge and scramble mode is nice and all but is it worth 2 or 3 hundred more? For me, not right now it's not.

Thats why I went with the MBC from www.boostvalve.com I set it at 14 psi and wired a switch to the stock wastegate solenoid, so when I want low boost (9 psi) I flip the switch to "turn on" the stock solenoid. When I want high boost, I simply turn off the solenoid and the boost pressure runs through the MBC. The switch is located in the cabin, so I don't have to pop the hood everytime I need to change levels, just when I need to change the setting on the MBC. Which I have only done once, when I first installed it. I usually drive around on low boost and whenever I get a wild hair, I just flip my little switch. :)

Either one, EBC, MBC, are fine and both essentially to the same job, just one does it fancier. I still want to get a EBC someday, just don't know which one yet.


Chris
 

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Running With Scissors
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Chris, I thought the same thing you did, till I got my PRofec. I'm telling you , you can get them for about $250, that's not too much at all, and I'm a cheapskate. There is a big difference in how well an EBC holds boost as compared to a MBC. My Profec will get 1 bar in 1st and 2nd, something that my MBC couldn't (only about 10psi in 2nd), and my Profec will fight and keep holding 1.0-.9 BAR all the way to about 5500. The boost also comes on much quicker than it did before, so I definately think it's work the extra $200. The hard part of an EBC is getting it calibrated. Once it's calibrated, you can really feel it. With my MBC I had no problems with IC hoses popping off at 15psi. WOth my Profec set to 1 BAR ( al little less than 15psi) one of my intercooler hoses kept poping off the Y-pipe. I had to superglue it to the Y-pipe, and clamp it down hard to keep it on. Until that happened, I was still skeptical about spending my money for the Profec , but that hose trick told me that the EBC was doing something the MBC wasn't.
 

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More Than Meets the Eye
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I'll keep my $5 valve from Ace Hardware.

I never want less than max power. If I want better gas mileage, I won't press the pedal all the way down - simple. If I'm WOT, I'm WOT for a reason and therefore want 100% of the power the car has to offer.

The fuzzy logic ones can also be trouble. If you've just got to have an EBC, use something like a Profec B that does plain old boost control. I still don't like the idea that with EBC's there are solenoids opening and closing rapidly to modulate boost. That is a wearable item destined for failure sooner rather than later where a simple mechanical valve isn't going anywhere.

A plain bleed like I'm using right now is ok. Theoretically it provides a slower boost response as the pressure reaches the set point. This is because the wastegate begins to open as the boost gets closer to that point. In a ball-and-spring setup (the $50-75 manual kits), it pops open at the set limit, keeping the wastegate fully closed until the set point. I've tried running my car (briefly) with pulled WG hoses and the spoolup to 15psi was no quicker than with my bleeder.

Those with upgraded turbos and other mods would probably benefit from the ball type MBC over a bleeder, but I strongly doubt that you'll see any gains by going electronic.
 

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The Wizard Of Aaahhhhh's
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Yea, the one I am using is a ball and spring type. I have had no problems at all out of it. No spikes or anything. On my car with the stock 9b's I peak at 14psi and hold 12 psi to redline. Not too bad for the little stockers.


Chris
 

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but I strongly doubt that you'll see any gains by going electronic.
I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. With my EBC I can change my boost level in the middle of a race while I'm in gear at WOT. Here is a good example:

At the import shootout in Desoto FL, I was in the semifinals. I lined up against a 1973 VW bug. We both had 13.7's dialed in so I knew it was gonna be very close. We take off and he starts to walk me (WTF???) so I reach down and turn my EBC up to the next channel. Boom, its like hitting a NOS button. My car takes off and I pass the guy beating him by .001 of a second. I finished in 2nd place and took home $250 cash prize.

The difference is, once the boost drops down to 12 psi, with a ECB you can bump it back up to 14psi.

Now the question is, is it worth it? This depends on you. A MBC will do the job 99% of the time for $300 less. However there will be a race one day that gets away from you because you didn't have the extra boost!

There is one thing I know for sure. I would never install a turbo timer over a EBC! I will sit in my car and let it cool down before I spend $100 for one of those things.
 

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Vr-4 Evr
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John M said:
but I strongly doubt that you'll see any gains by going electronic.


You must of not read that turbo issue where they test all the EBC and each of them gave different HPs valves on the same car. Blitz gave the best HP and responce.....can i say duel solenoid?=)
 

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John M said:
The fuzzy logic ones can also be trouble.
Ok, I really want someone to tell me why. I've heard this from people before, but usually they get that line from a friend who had a fuzzy logic controller on a car with sequential turbos like a REX. Fuzzy logic is fine for our cars. I know of noone with a 3/S TT and a Profec A that doesn't like it because of the fuzzy logic. I know 3 other people personally who have Profec A's on TT's and they wouldn't use anything else. ROCK SOLID boost till the turbos can't handle anymore. NO overboosting. What is so bad about fuzzy logic? I've heard this before, but no arguments or reasons why. Just people repeating what they've heard.
 

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More Than Meets the Eye
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If the boost fell off to 12psi and adjusting the EBC brought it back to 14, then the failure in that setup is the piping and/or the boost controller.

A <b>properly configured</b> manual will hold either the set boost or the maximum the turbos can deliver. If it falls off before either one of those two then it's not set up properly. The installation and adjustment of the manual setup is very important. Just slapping on a T and a valve won't do it. You have to understand the relationship between air volume and pressure in the signal lines to get it to work right.

If an EBC and ball & valve MBC are both set to 14psi and both withhold all boost from the wastegate actuators until reaching 14psi, neither can spool faster than the other. Again, if one is faster, something is improperly configured.
 

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my MBC is configured properly and i know how to make it boost spike easily to 20lbs of boost. Unlike EBC MBC dont have those boost spike limiters.
 

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I have an mbc and an apexi avc-r. I LOVE the avc-r!
It's worth every penny. It looks SO COOL! Besides, it can read other stuff too, like injector flow, rpms, bst, your solonoids it has data graphs, it is great. I preffer changing my boost in the capin.It is more convinent(dont wanna hurt your car running on 15 psi all day.)
 

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If the boost fell off to 12psi and adjusting the EBC brought it back to 14, then the failure in that setup is the piping and/or the boost controller.
If this is correct, why does the boost fall with both? I do not recall anyone reporting max psi to redline with a MBC. I have seen about 5 of them in person and all 5 people say the boost drops after 5k rpms. With my setup (no matter if its setup correctly or incorrectly) I can boost 15psi (and 17psi) to redline by changing settings after the initial settings fall. It may be the piping, but since we all have the same crappy piping I am glad I can adjust my boost to compensate.

I think that the boost settings fall at higher rpms but with a EBC you can adjust them back up, while with a MBC you are stuck.
 

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When I said piping, I was referring to the vac lines going to/from the boost controller.

If the boost falls off before either reaching the setpoint or the point where the turbos can't physically flow enough air, then it's the fault of the controller or the installation.

Boost control systems have to balance two key things: flow and pressure. Wastegates open at a specific pressure, period. You can activate them with a 1" diamater hose or a 1mm diameter hose - the pressure is still the same. It's when you start bleeding that things get interesting. If you use a large hose, you have to bleed a larger volume of air to reach the same pressure. If you use a small hose, you leak less air volume to reach your set pressure.

Spikes are caused when air has to fill the hose, due to length and/or diameter, and then "backs up" once filling the cavern. This lets boost initally go over the set point and then it goes back to your desired point. It was the filling of the lines that caused the spike. You can aleviate this by using smaller lines, restricting the amount of air going into the bleeder setup, or a combination of both. It's these two things that are the hard part of setting up a bleeder system.

A restrictor system works in a similar way, again relying on small actuator lines and a small bleed drilled into the actual valve to relase trapped air when the ball closes again. They withhold all boost signal to the wastegates, basically showing them the car is making zero boost, until they pop open at the set point. So, the wastegates go from full closed to full open almost instantly. This setup is less likely to produce spikes. If it does, smaller and/or shorter lines between the valve and the wastegate acuators would help.

My car with a $5 bleeder holds a solid 12psi to redline in 2nd and will actually hold 19 to redline in 3rd (wouldn't recommend it though, and I didn't do it on purpose).
 

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Discussion Starter #17
which EBC has a boost gauge in it?? or turbo timer? because i really dont feel like getting those gauges if i can get them in the turbo timer/EBC. thanks...
 

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my Blitz DSBC has a reading on it for kg/cm2. I had a boost gauge in my car for a while but I never used it. I always use the EBC.
 

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The HKS EVC IV also has a digital boost (in kg/cm2) and vacuum gauge built-in (no peak hold, just real time).

I seem to recall that severl of the Blitz turbo timer models also had digital boost gauges built-in.

Chris
1994 VR4
 

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I'm very interested in getting a Profec-A to work in the near future, but in the mean time, are there any good instructions for building and installing a bleeder valve on the web somewhere?

I know the basics, but I'd rather see one that someone has built for our cars and how its installed before I try it myself!
 
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