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Discussion Starter #122 (Edited)
Joe, I can assure you Scoot tried his best on this one. We owe him a thankyou.

Scoot, Have to agree, on this issue media has been useless.
They portray speedo rewinding as a scandal, but go no further than scratching the surface.
I have personally spoken to a reporter. Once you tell them the worst cases ( nearly every car in the yard ) of cars from Japan wound back are members of whatever state Motor Traders Association and they have links to sitting members of parliament they drop it like a hot potato.
You can point out to them a dealer with inhouse or associated compliance workshop has to know the correct KM cos documentation is required for compliancing, must be kept for ten years and must be provided to the minister if requested.
You can show them where an Australian dealer has bought multiple cars either at auction or from honest dealers in Japan and then the cars turn up for sale in Australia with less km than they had when the Australian dealer bought them in Japan.
You can show them a dealer selling wound back vans for disabled people access and cruelly preying on them as well.
You can point out the various state Fair Trading organisations are doing nothing with the laws allready in place to stop this in Australia, but trying the impossible and pointless task of lets try and catch the people the dishonest Aussie dealers are commissioning to rewind speedos between purchase in Japan and sale in an Australian caryard.
So far I have found it a waste of time.
Needs more of us taking action so they feel safe to take it on, I think.
Needs more people who have been conned getting onto Fair Trading and Media until someone that can do something finally gets off their shiny goverment arse.

Can only spread the word ourselves.
Get an Export certificate.
If you are interested in a car do your research. Watch the auctions and saleyards in Japan for a few months. You will learn heaps.
Even buying second hand in Australia, especially if the compliance plate is from a Sydney workshop, get an export certificate, these cars keep changing hands cos they look good, but each new owner finds out they have a worn out car they paid too much for and costing too much to keep.
It is not just the first owner in Australia ripped off, but the next and the next.
Support honest dealers or import your own Japanese car with honest help. The rewards of owning a good, genuine car, at the right price are worth the effort.
 

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Discussion Starter #123
I linked you all to this very interesting car in useless banter a few weeks ago.
It went up for auction about the 24th of sept 2014 with 140,148km.
It is a significant car. It is the last Silver TT MR ever made. Z15A0600287
You could have bought it yourself and landed it here with a genuine 140,148km for about $10,500 Landed and complied.


Auction sheet. ( Note it has "R" for repair ) Has had an accident. Problems with Right front panel and radiator support. Bonnet replaced.
In my opinion that's still OK buying at $10,500 Landed and Complied.



It must be on its way from Japan. Advert has turned up on Ebay with pics from Japan.
You can buy it from a dealer now for $23,888. ( With an optional stripe )
Advert says nothing about repairs and does not tell us how many km.
If you are in the market just remember the auction sheet where the honest sellers in Japan recorded 140,148km and "R" for repair and you could have got it here yourself for about $10,500 total.
Always do your research. Get an export certificate.


 

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I linked you all to this very interesting car in useless banter a few weeks ago.
It went up for auction about the 24th of sept 2014 with 140,148km.
It is a significant car. It is the last Silver TT MR ever made. Z15A0600287
You could have bought it yourself and landed it here with a genuine 140,148km for about $10,500 Landed and complied.


Auction sheet. ( Note it has "R" for repair ) Has had an accident. Problems with Right front panel and radiator support. Bonnet replaced.
In my opinion that's still OK buying at $10,500 Landed and Complied.



It must be on its way from Japan. Advert has turned up on Ebay with pics from Japan.
You can buy it from a dealer now for $23,888. ( With an optional stripe )
Advert says nothing about repairs and does not tell us how many km.
If you are in the market just remember the auction sheet where the honest sellers in Japan recorded 140,148km and "R" for repair and you could have got it here yourself for about $10,500 total.
Always do your research. Get an export certificate.




So I think I will arrange to inspect the car - I'll let you know it turns out
 

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Take the export cert with you and at the end reel off the facts.

Next Syd meet should start there, we could make a huge scene, call local media and NSW road authority.

At worst the GTO club gets some air time :)
 

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Discussion Starter #126
I linked you all to this very interesting car in useless banter a few weeks ago.
It went up for auction about the 24th of sept 2014 with 140,148km.
It is a significant car. It is the last Silver TT MR ever made. Z15A0600287
You could have bought it yourself and landed it here with a genuine 140,148km for about $10,500 Landed and complied.


Auction sheet. ( Note it has "R" for repair ) Has had an accident. Problems with Right front panel and radiator support. Bonnet replaced.
In my opinion that's still OK buying at $10,500 Landed and Complied.



It must be on its way from Japan. Advert has turned up on Ebay with pics from Japan.
You can buy it from a dealer now for $23,888. ( With an optional stripe )
Advert says nothing about repairs and does not tell us how many km.
If you are in the market just remember the auction sheet where the honest sellers in Japan recorded 140,148km and "R" for repair and you could have got it here yourself for about $10,500 total.
Always do your research. Get an export certificate.


Can't say you are not informed on 3si. Found this today.
Back room boys have sent word to head office. New km is 62,296

So there you go.
141,148km in Japan late September 2014. About $10,500 complianced if you bought it youself.

Now 62,296km late November 2014 with a Sydney dealer. Asking price $23,888

Do your research before buying.
Police and Goverment are turning a blind eye. Goverment gets some of your hard earned cash as well when you buy from a licsenced MTA dealer like this one.

Latest advert off the net with the new kms.

 

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Discussion Starter #127
Don't be fooled, its the same car !!!
Looks like it is in Sydney. Got a video and some cosmetic changes but it is still poor old Z15A0600287 that had 141,148km about 9 weeks ago.

 

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I drive past Edward Lees a few times a week. This GTO was at front of his yard but now gone, so I spose someone has bought it.
 

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Discussion Starter #129 (Edited)
This is really important !!!

While following up a blue 96 GTO for sale in Sydney I stumbled upon this.-

NSW Civil & Administrative Tribunal not so long ago found against a Sydney car dealer.
The customer had got an export certificate which showed his car had 101,000km in Japan. He had bought the car earlier from a Sydney dealer with 33,725km showing on the speedo.
He also got an independant valuation what price the car should be with 101,000km and 33,000km.
Dealer was ordered to pay the customer back $18,526 and customer got to keep the car.

Like I said really important.
Anyone out there suspects they have a wound back car study this link and take action.
Be good to see customers winning for a change instead of the crooked dealers.

Case Study - Japanese Odometer Check


Here is the blue 96 I referred to earlier, You might recall, same dealer had a wound back 2000 featured a few pages back in this thread. You will also notice if you studied the link above it looks to be the same dealer is mentioned in the case study.



The vin number is 6U9000Z16A0300136. ( If you are buying an export certificate you need the Z16A0300136 part of that, hey ) I took my eye off the ball for a bit partly cos it is frustrating no crooked dealers are out of business yet far as I can tell. Am sure I saw this 96 GTO go through the auctions in Japan a while back but did not right click save. Thought a 96 would be getting too old for an Aussie dealer. Wrong again. Anyhow be suspicious. In this close up from the engine pic from the ad you can plainly see a patch on the timing belt cover where a sticker has been removed. Fair chance that was the sticker which said the KM when the belt was replaced in Japan and fair chance that is said more than 100,000km.
 

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Discussion Starter #130
Did not like guessing so got an Export Certificate on the way for Blue 96 GTO in the post above.
Been advised it shows Z16A0300136 had 143,800km on the clock on 14-Oct-2011 in Japan.
( Now advertised in Sydney with 59,831km )

If you bought it allready head for the NSW Civil & Administrative Tribunal and take action.
If you didn't buy it yet and still like it, use the info, try and get the price down to what it is really worth.
 

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This is some truly fucked up shit. I can't imagine how I would feel if my car was not only overpriced but twice as abused as I thought it was. Who willingly does that to people? Dickbags
 

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Discussion Starter #132
Bad enough when a dealer spruiking the benifits of buying from a registered member of the Motor Traders Association is actually winding back speedos on vans with disabled persons access.
But worse is the bodies charged with protecting the public sit on their hands.

Really good that at least one lone determined citizen has not stopped at the Fair Trading and Police Dept fob offs and gone to the Civil and Administration Tribunal and got a result.

Don't like posting without proof so here are two more pics re Blue 96 TT GTO on last page. One shows the rest of the advert with serial number plus Pic of export certificate for same.


 

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I hope I have not missed the point being made here.
My take: the Japs are now experts at "presenting to auction" cars that have already been tarted up at low cost to improve the auction price & this includes winding back odometers.
The logbooks/Service records/Owners manuals are quite routinely "misplaced" & so the result is no evidence left to establish true mileage.
I don't know of any documentary checks that can be made to overcome this.
However any importer with a reputation to protect already knows all this. They can insist that they will purchase only cars with full records to support the odometer reading.
It is also possible to have an instrument technician certify that the odometer has not been tampered with; this is generally done when the import is landed & before presenting for sale. Of course this applies only to mechanical cable driven odometers. Digital technology has made tampering much more difficult (read nigh impossible).
Bear in mind that Jap cars gain miles on the clock at roughly the same per year rate as in Australia or New Zealand. If a vehicle is presented to you with "Too good to be true mileage" it almost certainly is to be avoided!
 

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Discussion Starter #134
peterlonz
I think you have missed the point.
Respect your opinion but am sure you are completely wrong. Would encourage you to please read the whole thread.
I have personally imported 3 cars from Japan and followed many into Australia. Also bought various GTO parts and accessories from Japanese auctions.
First thing each morning I look at what is coming up for auction in Japan. Correct km, well described. Right click save, keep the auction sheets.
Also watch Yahoo or Goonet for dealer cars in Japan.
After a while you can pick in advance which cars are likely to be bought by a handfull of Australian dealers in particular. Then its just a matter of waiting about 10 to 12 weeks for them to turn up in Australia advertised with lower km than they had in Japan.
If a dummy like me can catch them out anyone can.
My personal opinion Japanese are completely honest and up front.
Japan Dept of transport definately has a record of a vehicles serial number and km at last 2 year vehicle inspection for registration.
This is what appears on the Export certificate shown above.
The compliancing workshop in Australia must keep this document on hand for ten years.
Have shown in this thread that Japanese go to great lengths even to record km correctly, when a speedo is replaced for whatever reason.
Suggest you take a look on youtube re digital odometers. You will be surprised I think.
And nope, I have bought two 15 year old cars with 36,000km and 40,000km respectively. That would be unusually low km for an Australian car in my experience.

A handfull of dealers and the Australian goverment are making a fortune ripping off ordinary people like you and I.
Only way to stop it is spread the word. Hence this thread.
Any doubts at all, sight a Japanese Dept of transport Export certificate if you are looking at a Japanese import.
The satisfaction of owning and driving a vehicle in good condition with correct mileage is certainly worth the trouble.
Cheers, John.
 

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John,
It appears your overall experience is superior to mine so I accept the majority of what you say.
What I now fail to understand is why you consider the Aust Fed Govt at fault?
Also in the automotive sector to believe that the Japanese are not capable of engineered rip offs is a bit naive surely?
BTW I knew one NZ dealer who was firm in his list of basic requirements but from time to time received a vehicle substantially different to the one he ordered! I gather it goes with the territory.
 

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Discussion Starter #136
John,
What I now fail to understand is why you consider the Aust Fed Govt at fault?
Also in the automotive sector to believe that the Japanese are not capable of engineered rip offs is a bit naive surely?
Australian Fed Govt controls the overall import legislation.
They also collect 10% GST and 5% import duty for every car that comes in.
State Govt collects Stamp Duty & Rego when you register your car. ( These cars change hands often, They still look good but after the excitement of initial purchase wears off the owners realise they have problems.) so in time that is multiple collections of Stamp duty and Rego.

Goverment I reckon would make nearly as much out of these cars as the crooked dealers do.
Goverments and Motor Traders Association are joined at the hip. Read this quote from a Liberal National Party polititian.

From post #78 in this thread,- Quote from Parliamentry record. Member for Coffs Harbour.

Hansard
Legislative Assembly by date
23 June 2010
Motor Traders Association
Printing Tips | Print selected text | Full Day Hansard Transcript | « Prior Item | Item 44 of 58 | Next Item »


About this Item
Speakers Fraser Mr Andrew
Business Private Members Statements, PRIV




MOTOR TRADERS ASSOCIATION
Page: 24684


Mr ANDREW FRASER (Coffs Harbour) [5.31 p.m.]: I reflect on a fantastic function I went to on the Saturday night before last to celebrate 100 years of service of the Motor Traders Association in New South Wales, which was held at the Town Hall. I guess that every member in this House would have a member of the Motor Traders Association in their electorate. On the night, organised by the chief executive officer, James McCall, and well put together by his executive assistant, Nicole Smith, many people were recognised for their service to the Motor Traders Association.
The organisation has had something like 49 presidents over 100 years. It has been a phenomenal organisation and it boasts a number of firsts. On the night we were told that in 1914 the Motor Traders Association held its first motor show. In 1922 it registered as an industrial union for employers. In 1939 it lobbied the Government to introduce a vehicle safety check, now known as the pink slip. In 1974 it played a vital role in the introduction of the Motor Dealers Act. In 1980 it formed a group apprentice scheme and in 1981 it played a vital role in the introduction of the Motor Vehicle Repairers Act. The Motor Traders Association still lobbies members, as everyone in this House would know, to support its association and legislation that affects its members.
On the night Mr George Altomonte was recognised for outstanding lifetime service to the Motor Traders Association, as were Graeme Tompkins, Malcolm Brooks, a past member of this place, Edward Lee, Geoffrey Lowe, Ray Beekman, Steve Borg and Maurie Pinfold, the current president. Maurie spoke with aplomb on the night and conducted a magnificent evening.
End Quote.

This connection is the only thing that explains to me why the police and Fair Trading do nothing.
I have contacted the Police station nearest the most prominent crooked dealer in Sydney ( Only a couple of blocks away- Google earth ) Told them about wound back cars on the premises, they say go to Fair Trading with your evidence. Fair Trading does absolutely Zip. Produces a brochure to protect consumers if they read it. They have all the tools and legislation they need to put a dealer away yet nothing happens.
Spend some time searching the subject and you will find there are plenty of people out there watching other makes of cars, collecting evidence.
Arrests on Imported cars = Zip as far as I know.

And you are right, I would be naive to think any one country in the world would have no dishonest people in it.
But on my personal experiences to date, Japan is a good place to buy both cars and parts from.
I have been ripped off once by an Australian dealer. I learnt from that experience and hope this thread saves other people from the same fate.
 

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My brother was just sold a cooked car with more than three times the Australian KM on the deregistration certificate.
Thankfully the dealer is being communicative even if they're not being helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter #138
My brother was just sold a cooked car with more than three times the Australian KM on the deregistration certificate.
Thankfully the dealer is being communicative even if they're not being helpful.
Thats bad news. He is one of many, many victims though.
Don't give up on feeding it to the dealer.
 

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Thats bad news. He is one of many, many victims though.
Don't give up on feeding it to the dealer.
I warned him about it, and he demanded that the certificate be sold with the car. When it arrived with no certificate, CEL on, two bald tyres and over 2000km more on the odo than the listing he was less than impressed.

Thankfully my family has the time to give them hell, but we'd still prefer if there weren't these scammers around. A search of the dealers (old) name turns up one case against them back in 2013 too.

Edit: Also, is it possible to find a copy of the auction notes this late kn the process, or would have be a needle in a haystack type thing?
 

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I get the point but remain a bit confused:
The Jap dealer shows mileage at 138,000 Km ........ummm exactly ?
The export certs show mileage at 130,600 AND 120,600 Km........can't be both?
If the documents appear unreliable it may be one reason prosecutions are rare.

John can you explain please?

And am I correct in thinking that the last inspection could pre-date the auction by up to 2 years. If so the "present at auction Km" need only be somewhat higher & things look OK despite the unproveable possibility of a windback of up to 2 years running?
I can say that at least in NZ (roughly 10 years ago now) the mileage at auction was the document used to convince customers. Things now may well have changed.
 
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