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Discussion Starter #1

Ive read that but have questions for my specific application.

Car has dr650 non billet turbos installed but only at 10psi. I have 660cc injectors, supra pump, Boost controller and a ARC2 that needs reinstalled.

Can the 660cc injectors supply enough to run non billet dr650s? I know the supra pump needs to go back in from that thread, Would a chrome ECU make this conversion easier or can the ARC-2 and a Wideband.handle it? I have E85 easily available and this seems like a no brainer (decision wise) to do on a twin turbo car.

EDIT - Also want to run them at 18psi or so.
 

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You will probably get a million different answers and opinions on this from minimum requirements to covering all bases ("compliant" components/lines/seals, SS filter, etc.)

What you have will work for a basic setup, but you will be limited on fuel supply - very quickly. The ARC-2 will probably be okay up to 880-1000cc on ethanol, but you will need to keep load/IDC's in check at the risk of having excessive ignition timing. If everything goes well, tuning literally takes minutes from start to finish akin to a MAF-T alone.

If you want to try it out first, then just proceed with what you already have on-hand. Otherwise, my suggestion would be at least an AEM 340lph FP and 720-880cc injectors. You will want to datalog in addition to the wideband gauge.
 

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the supra pump may be the limiting factor you should go with something bigger as alan suggested everything else should work fine for you
 

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the supra pump may be the limiting factor you should go with something bigger as alan suggested everything else should work fine for you
+1 for this. You will definitely need a bigger pump for full e85 with those turbos and target boost. For reference, i am running a 50/50 blend of pump 91 and pump E85 with mods in signature. Basically, supra pump (not hotwired), 550cc (fleshly cleaned), new OEM fuel filter and a completely stock fuel system otherwise. With 13g turbos, I can run 15-18 psi (18 psi peak in good weather, 15 to redline) and my fuel starts to run away a little but after 5000 rpm (goes up to 11.5 AFR from 11.0 or so). Adjusting SAFCII and adding fuel doesnt do anything, so i know i am running out of pump. I could hotwire to push a little further, but everything is working right now so i am comfortable with it and not driving hard for extended periods of time. The 660s will run out of fuel shortly after the pump with full E85. Remember that its roughly 30% less energy than pump gas, so the 660s are basically like 450s on pump.

Are you going to do the tuning yourself? As noted above, you really need a datalogging setup if so. I did my tuning myself using BlackStealth's converter, datalogging using torque. It was pretty easy once you are logging a wideband (along with knock and other ECU parameters). I would essentially just log a few 3rd gear pulls, plot AFR vs. RPM, then make adjustments at the SAFC2 set points to add/subtract fuel where needed to get the AFR i wanted.

So basically i would just get a bigger fuel pump, install what you mentioned, and then make the jump to E85. If you are worried about making the change all at once, you can start with a mix and then work your way up to full E85. With the 660s, a mix might work well for you.
 

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You should be able to make close to 18 psi on 91 pump before knocking. I have seen some do it but for sure 16-17 psi. There aren't huge significant gains at lower boost running E-85 from what I have messed with but you get used to the power very quickly as well.

I don't think your Supra fuel pump will cut it to 18 psi on E-85. 91 you'll be good. I'd recommend a Walbro 450. They're cheap and super quiet. I had the Aeromotive Stealth 340 fuel pump but it was between the loudness of the walbro 255 and supra/denso fuel pumps so not super quiet. Mine maxed out with 720cc injectors, E-40, and 24 psi on 22T turbos. I've had the Walbro 400 series pumps since then and you can't beat the price for $100 with install kit.

ARC-2 will handle the 660cc injectors. It'll handle 1000cc injectors on E-85 to a point. I ran it that way for awhile and on some less efficient turbos made 32 psi without any issues. However, on some DR-750s and 20Ts I lifted the heads early on 22-24 psi. It scaled down the airflow signal too far, only hit 130 ecu load not 200+, and ran 24-25 degrees of ignition timing as a result. It also does not work like a translator with larger injectors(i.e. set the injector size on the MAFT for 360 and tune the bigger injector size in chrome). That works for the GM MAF/MAFT setup but the ARC-2 converts things differently and it just won't run on a huge injector, setting the dials to a smaller injector 360-450, and then setting your injector size in chrome(1000+cc for example). Anyways, that probably sounds super confusing but know you should be ok with 660-880cc injectors just watch your timing numbers to make sure they don't go past 21 degrees. 660s won't get you too far on E-85 probably around 15 psi or so.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thanks for the replies. So bigger injectors if not doing a 50/50 mix. It seems like a 50/50 mix would be difficult to achieve all the time, so id rather go full on E85. So the 660's would have to go for something larger, or just run 91/92/93.
 

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I mean you could always just go AEM v2, which will handle whatever size injectors you wanna throw at it. Plus throw in a flex fuel sensor and get a tune for gas and E85 and you can run whatever mix you feel like.
 

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Thanks for the replies. So bigger injectors if not doing a 50/50 mix. It seems like a 50/50 mix would be difficult to achieve all the time, so id rather go full on E85. So the 660's would have to go for something larger, or just run 91/92/93.
Its really hot hard to maintain the mix. I don't daily my 3000gt anymore so when i go to get gas i just put in 5 gallons of 91 and 5 gallons of E85... you could just wait until your gas light comes on, then put 7 or so gallons of each and you should never have an issue. Slight variations in E content are going to be fine. If you are really worried about it and you have BlackStealth's datalogging setup, you can very easily wire in a flex fuel sensor and monitor/log your ethanol content that way.

E85 sounds great and all (and it is), but you can reap the benefits of higher octane with a 50/50 mix while avoiding some of the drawbacks of going full E85 (cold starts, potentially eating stock fuel components, etc). For 18 psi and your described power goals, the mix more be more than sufficient and give you a nice saftey margin over pump gas. Your 660s should be fine, you wouldnt have to run very much negative correction, and you should just need a fuel pump.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok, that seems to make sense now that you put it that way.I didnt think of the 5 and 5 thing, I was thinking of filling up with one or the other every half tank, and was like what if I miss the half tank mark LOL, not used to mixing fuel.

So theoretically if I went with a wideband and reinstalled the ARC-2 and I couldnt find E85 I could just adjust the arc-2 on the fly right? Car isnt a daily driver really but who knows where Ill end up when I need gas and if E85 is an available.

hows e85 compare to meth or alcohol injection? Ive heard that the meth/alcohol cools the intake manifold which seems like a benefit too. But perhaps not? I like the torque gains E85 should provide though and the higher octane is definitely good for a turbo car.
 

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Yeah its pretty simple honestly. Unless you are road tripping the car, not really an issue. Also, check out the pearson fuels app. Not sure where you live but they are the major provider of E85 here in SoCal, their app shows all the stations, and i read a few articles that said their E85 is pretty much always 83.3%.

Yup. When i first started mixing, i was going from full pump 91 to partial E85 mix in stages. I was super paranoid to do it the first time, and was also worried about doing my own tuning, but once i had my datalogging setup in place it was fine. I turned my boost down to wastegate, went until the fuel light came on (3 gal remaining), then put in 2 gallons of gas and 2.5 gallons of E85 (trying to get 5 gal 91 and 2.5 gal E85). I then drove around a little to mix it, added a bit of fuel across the board on the SAFC2, then did a few 3rd gear pulls carefully watching AFR and knock. Went home, downloaded those datalogs, plotted AFR vs. RPM, then used that graph to make adjustments on my SAFC2 setpoints. Once i got that where i wanted I increased the ethanol to gas ratio until i was at 50/50. Got the tune dialed in there after a few iterations and the car runs stronger than it ever has. Zero knock compared to some issues i was having on pump gas.

But yeah if you run into a pump gas only situation you can just add fuel across the board (maybe 10-15% if you are going from 50/50 to full pump) and you will be fine. Especially if you are just driving normally, the NBO2s are going to help keep fuel in check. It will just run rich if you put in all pump gas on a tune made for ethanol.

Meth/alc injection does indeed cool the charge air due to the evaporation (true for any volatile liquid). Even using more E85 will help with this to an extent - you are going to be injecting more fuel (quantity of fuel injected compared to gas), the ethanol can/will evaporate, which cools the air/mixture. However, you are injecting very close to the cylinders (different from water/meth), so there is relatively less time for this to occur. With your target boost levels, the water/meth seems unnecessary if you are mixing E85. Also, i personally didnt want to add those additional systems and controls when E85 seemed like a much simpler option.
 

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Ok, that seems to make sense now that you put it that way.I didnt think of the 5 and 5 thing, I was thinking of filling up with one or the other every half tank, and was like what if I miss the half tank mark LOL, not used to mixing fuel.

So theoretically if I went with a wideband and reinstalled the ARC-2 and I couldnt find E85 I could just adjust the arc-2 on the fly right? Car isnt a daily driver really but who knows where Ill end up when I need gas and if E85 is an available.

hows e85 compare to meth or alcohol injection? Ive heard that the meth/alcohol cools the intake manifold which seems like a benefit too. But perhaps not? I like the torque gains E85 should provide though and the higher octane is definitely good for a turbo car.
The ARC-2 is literally the easiest tuning device to adjust on the fly. Even with an injector swap I can tune a car in 5 minutes after it is warmed up and the 02s are cycling. Mid knob always stays the same at -7, high is only for WOT so that just varies with demand, boost, etc. Low and accel work together with accel usually staying +1 to +3 max and low can vary a little more. Low is mostly for cruising. But definitely if you want to switch between 91, E-85, or a mix you can adjust the knobs very quickly and easily. I always had to make an accel adjustment here and there with huge temperature swings from hot to cold but that's about it. For really large injectors above 800cc I would just go GM MAF and Chrome or AEM v2 to save yourself from editing as much for tuning.
 
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