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My thoughts exactly on lag. Does it really matter if my turbos spool up at say 5k if I run faster then someone else's car that spools at 2.5K? Sure, I have more lag, but I also have a faster car. This is all an example by the way ;) I also still want my turbos to spool by 3.5-4K as it is still a daily driver :p
 

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Mobo and others

There are some of us with daily drivers that want "quick" cars not just "fast" cars.
Quick cars are more drivable in that I don't have to wait 15 min for power to kick in so I can move ahead of a car in the next lane.
Or I can make the quick pass on the limited passing lane on the mountain road.
To each his own :)
 

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Re: Mobo and others

Jim Floyd said:
There are some of us with daily drivers that want "quick" cars not just "fast" cars.
Quick cars are more drivable in that I don't have to wait 15 min for power to kick in so I can move ahead of a car in the next lane.
Or I can make the quick pass on the limited passing lane on the mountain road.
To each his own :)
I dont think there is ever a time, except from a 10mph or lower start, that you cant just drop a gear and be in the spooling area for most turbos. I mean going 45mph, drop into 2nd and you are prime for passing on that mountain road with almost any turbo.

everyone talks lag, but i mean, if you shift at 8300rpm(with ecu upgrade) your rpms are right at the point where turbos are spooling anyhow, and shouldnt drop much below that ever if you are racing....
 

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hassie

Because I grew up with V-8 muscle cars running low rear ends I am spoiled by having always had INSTANT torque available.

Yes, she is cute - who is she ?

How do I get to be an honorary ***** too ?
 

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I tend to think lag is entirely underrated. My car spools too slow for me ... this is why my next car will have 7.6L of displacement and a supercharger ... no lag ... endless torque ... fuck this small displacement bullshit. For the amount of money you put into a VR4 to make it hit 10's you can have two nice looking cars (I'm talking dodge chargers or WS6's or whatever) that are running 9's on pump gas.

I have a friend with a 951 porsche ... it hits boost at about 4,000 RPMS and the RW-TQ goes from about 130 ft-lbs to maybe 230 by 4,500RPMS ... it is ridiculous ... and retarded to drive. You floor it off-idle and you have this bizarre pause and then BAM ... wall of torque. It is kind of neat ... but in the end it really feels dumb.

Also ... something important to note ... once you end up with too peaky of a powerband your car is all but useless in the twisties. You want a straightline car then fine ... put a massive turbo and spool it with N20 and you might hit 9's ... but that car is useless in the curves ... so what's the point of having a sports car that can't turn.

If you want a drag car you have the wrong platform people ... 3.0L simply isn't enough displacement.
 

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Feral said:
I tend to think lag is entirely underrated. My car spools too slow for me ... this is why my next car will have 7.6L of displacement and a supercharger ... no lag ... endless torque ... fuck this small displacement bullshit. For the amount of money you put into a VR4 to make it hit 10's you can have two nice looking cars (I'm talking dodge chargers or WS6's or whatever) that are running 9's on pump gas.

I have a friend with a 951 porsche ... it hits boost at about 4,000 RPMS and the RW-TQ goes from about 130 ft-lbs to maybe 230 by 4,500RPMS ... it is ridiculous ... and retarded to drive. You floor it off-idle and you have this bizarre pause and then BAM ... wall of torque. It is kind of neat ... but in the end it really feels dumb.

Also ... something important to note ... once you end up with too peaky of a powerband your car is all but useless in the twisties. You want a straightline car then fine ... put a massive turbo and spool it with N20 and you might hit 9's ... but that car is useless in the curves ... so what's the point of having a sports car that can't turn.

If you want a drag car you have the wrong platform people ... 3.0L simply isn't enough displacement.
Turbo 3/S cars have 315 ft-lbs at 2500 RPM stock remember. I do agree with you on the too peaky of a power band issue for street cars but if you are going for 9's then you don't care if it can turn fast. And conversly, if you are going for a track car you don't care if you can run 9's. Apples and oranges. Two different applications. If there is no point in owning a sports car that can't turn why do people have the old timey muscle cars? (Not well known for their turning prowess but their 1320 times instead.) 3.0L seems to be enough displacement to drag race Supras. 1500 HP last I checked was good enough to run 8s. Probably close to 7s now if they aren't their already. Granted they are straight up drag cars but no one is complaining about displacement are they? Go on and get a 7.6 L supercharged car, sell your 3/S to some one who appreciates it more, and get off www.3Si.org if you don't like it. We aren't here to be talked down to by our own members.
 

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Discussion Starter · #107 ·
I see Feral's point, it's not the best platform by far, but it's not the worst either.
 

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Feral said:
I tend to think lag is entirely underrated. My car spools too slow for me ... this is why my next car will have 7.6L of displacement and a supercharger ... no lag ... endless torque ... fuck this small displacement bullshit. For the amount of money you put into a VR4 to make it hit 10's you can have two nice looking cars (I'm talking dodge chargers or WS6's or whatever) that are running 9's on pump gas.

Total bullshit comment.
 

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Bret Brinkmann said:


Turbo 3/S cars have 315 ft-lbs at 2500 RPM stock remember. I do agree with you on the too peaky of a power band issue for street cars but if you are going for 9's then you don't care if it can turn fast. And conversly, if you are going for a track car you don't care if you can run 9's. Apples and oranges. Two different applications. If there is no point in owning a sports car that can't turn why do people have the old timey muscle cars? (Not well known for their turning prowess but their 1320 times instead.) 3.0L seems to be enough displacement to drag race Supras. 1500 HP last I checked was good enough to run 8s. Probably close to 7s now if they aren't their already. Granted they are straight up drag cars but no one is complaining about displacement are they? Go on and get a 7.6 L supercharged car, sell your 3/S to some one who appreciates it more, and get off www.3Si.org if you don't like it. We aren't here to be talked down to by our own members.
I will never sell either of my 3/S cars as I love them for what they can do ... however they are not drag cars and will never effectively compete with larger displacement drag cars. 9's is nowhere near the 7's and 6's the mustangs are running with only 5.4L of displacement or the pro stock classes which are limited to 504CI (8.4L) and are running 5's and 6's.

In drag racing there is no replacement for displacement ... and 3.0L < 7.6L
 

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hostile said:


Total bullshit comment.
Is it?

I have a friend who just built a 533CI engine with a super charger. He puts about 1200 to the rear wheels on pump gas. He's still tuning but is expecting low 9's on ET streets and mid 8's on slicks. His total cost, including the car, was $20k. I could have three of those things for the amount of $$$ Mike M. has sunk into his high 10 second VR4.
 

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We are a jacl of all trades, yet a master of none.
 

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I stand corrected, for the most part we are. We do have the holeshot (AWD) advantage, but half the people to have have the ballz to launch the cars correctly! If you give up that advantage then my statement stands true. ;)
 

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Feral said:


I will never sell either of my 3/S cars as I love them for what they can do ... however they are not drag cars and will never effectively compete with larger displacement drag cars. 9's is nowhere near the 7's and 6's the mustangs are running with only 5.4L of displacement or the pro stock classes which are limited to 504CI (8.4L) and are running 5's and 6's.

In drag racing there is no replacement for displacement ... and 3.0L < 7.6L
What about those Supras I mentioned? They are just as fast as those Mustangs. And less then 5.4L at that. That is why turbos are known as the great equalizer, you know that. The no replacement for displacement is an old school out dated mind set that probably is still around only because it rhymes. There are lots of replacements for displacement. Turbos, super chargers, nitrous, gear ratios, power to weight ratios, higher compression, technological advancements in cylinder head designs (not talking about V-TECH) as well as other engine internals. I can name specifics on that last one if you want. There is even a Supra that runs 9s with a full interior for crying out load. And he did it because he never wussed out on his Supra buddies and said "fuck this small displacement bullshit."
 

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The cars that claim to be street cars hardly handle good enough to do anything but go fast in a straight line. Having said that, there are tons of Mustangs and Grand Nationals that have gone quicker and faster then the fastest Supras. What makes them faster? Larger displacement, nothing else. When all things are equal, the bigger motor will make more power. Theres a point where the returns are minimal due to the shear mass of the rotating assembly, but in the end, a fully race built Mustang turbo is going to make more power then a fully race built Supra turbo motor simply because it has more displacement and can pump more air and fuel through the cylinders. 1000whp Mustangs are no big deal in the domestic world, they are getting those motors to put out close to 2000hp ---same with the Grand Nationals.

We only have the holeshot advantage at the fast street car level. When you get into the big leagues with real drag cars running full slicks yanking the tires off the ground, I do no think a 1.6 60 ft is going to cut it.

Sam
 

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wraith said:
The cars that claim to be street cars hardly handle good enough to do anything but go fast in a straight line. Having said that, there are tons of Mustangs and Grand Nationals that have gone quicker and faster then the fastest Supras. What makes them faster? Larger displacement, nothing else. When all things are equal, the bigger motor will make more power. Theres a point where the returns are minimal due to the shear mass of the rotating assembly, but in the end, a fully race built Mustang turbo is going to make more power then a fully race built Supra turbo motor simply because it has more displacement and can pump more air and fuel through the cylinders. 1000whp Mustangs are no big deal in the domestic world, they are getting those motors to put out close to 2000hp ---same with the Grand Nationals.

We only have the holeshot advantage at the fast street car level. When you get into the big leagues with real drag cars running full slicks yanking the tires off the ground, I do no think a 1.6 60 ft is going to cut it.

Sam
Yes this is my point Bret. There is no 3.0L supra in the world that can run 7's ... or can run 9's (if not 10's) on pump gas ... yet you can get a 5.4L mustang into the 9's on pump gas ... and 2000HP is just race gas away.

Also the only reason why mustangs are not running 6's is because of the weight requirements ... due to class restrictions they are not allowed to be under 3,000lbs ... and can't be over 5.4L of displacement.

There is no replacement for displacement.

And this is reflected on the roadcourse too. Boost lag is heavily undesirable on the roadcourse. I am willing to bet Matt's car would hand Mike's car it's ass on the roadcourse due to the lower lag. High lag cars fall out of boost in turns and then end up downshifting out of the turn ... etc. Peaky power also sucks because if you hit boost while going through a turn you lose traction. This is why supercharged cars are better than turbocharged cars on the roadcourse.

Finally our 60's are NOT fast enough. 11/10 second N/A cars cut 1.4-1.5 60's ... whereas we cut 1.6/1.7's ... we start to lose the 60' game in the mid 11's.
 

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Bret Brinkmann said:


I do agree with you on the too peaky of a power band issue for street cars but if you are going for 9's then you don't care if it can turn fast. And conversly, if you are going for a track car you don't care if you can run 9's. Apples and oranges. Two different applications.
Remember when I said this? Why is it being talked about again if we are all saying the same thing?

With all the new technology out there racers are still exploring the limits of what engines like these can do with modern and state of the art technology (relitive to drag raceing of course). Every year they get significantly faster and faster. Given the amount of time spent on each type of car, we have come a long way relitively fast. And there is still more power and quicker times to come with greater refinement.

And sence 60ft times have some how gotten into this mix... Sixty foot times are just as much a function of power as they are a function of chasis set up. Slicks help make low 60 ft times. Slick are part of the chasis not the motor and so aren't the topic of conversation. (Stay with people I'm about to try and make my point.)

If any one of you can say that ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL there is no replacement for displacement, then I can say there is no replacement for sequential fuel injection ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. There are multiple varibles in cars and they aren't equal. If you make all but one varible equal then of course the car with the greater advantage in that varible is going to be faster. But which varible is the one that isn't equal? It is what ever us bench racers say it is. If you make the displacement of the engine the only varible then it is just as reasonable for you to make the cylinder head design the only varible. Therefore displacement does not nessisitate power. Neither do big turbos, cylinder head design, type of fuel, or any of the other hundreds possibley even thousands of varibles. It is the sum of the parts. That is my point.

The reason I have gotten into such a hissy fit is that peolpe appaer to be comeing across as saying, "yeah our cars suck they aren't worth the time or money." No one is going to respond well to statements like that. Sorry for going off the wall like this. Blame the displacement of my ego. j/k So if we are all finally in agreement how about a truce?
 

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Re: Re: DR500s Dyno #'s



If he had an ARC II, an upgraded SMIC setup, and a strong clutch,...where do you think his hp/torque #s would be? Kinda curious, because that will be my sig will look like when I can find the time to install all my mods.

BLUTO
Guess What Its Time to take my 1995 3000gt vr4 out of storage, was running 20psi on DR500's before #3 compression rings went due to stock injectors limit's, New rebuilt motor, balanced Stock internals, bored 20 over cylinders installed, no miles, stored since 2012, using SAFC-2 and ARC-2 together, 660cc injectors, FMIC, Larger Radiator, and 340 Pump hotwired.
 

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Re: Re: DR500s Dyno #'s



If he had an ARC II, an upgraded SMIC setup, and a strong clutch,...where do you think his hp/torque #s would be? Kinda curious, because that will be my sig will look like when I can find the time to install all my mods.

BLUTO
hmmm....

with all that talk about the limit of the MAS lately, scratch one good example to the 500hp limit team......that's interesting stuff guys, good work and thanks for the info
Guess What Its Time to take my 1995 3000gt vr4 out of storage, was running 20psi on DR500's before #3 compression rings went due to stock injectors limit's, New rebuilt motor, balanced Stock internals, bored 20 over cylinders installed, no miles, stored since 2012, using SAFC-2 and ARC-2 together, 660cc injectors, FMIC, Larger Radiator, and 340 Pump hotwired.
 

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1995 3000gt vr4 out of storage, was running 20psi on DR500's before #3 compression rings went due to stock injectors limit's
Thanks for the info. I'm running my DR500 on stock injectors 15PSI max. I've been logging and I've not run out of fuel given the RPM because i rarely run over 5k RPM.
 
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