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92vr4ny said:
DR500's
Stage 2 or Stage 3 Heads
Propane
No Cats
3" Exhaust
LS1 MAF
... lets say 18 PSI?

Well I be maxing out the turbos? Can a stock, cast crank even hold this, if it is a 1st gen? If that is maxing it out, would the next option only be bigger turbos, or is there better ways to add HP at that point, like a CFDS?
Turbos are your cheapest, best way to add more horsepower. Everything else is just additional. On a first gen I'd worry about the tranny output shaft before the lower end of the engine ... however DR500's maxed out on stage III heads will probably only hold 15-16psi to redline ... and should make close to 550-600 at the crank. Just look at matt's [email protected] ... stage III heads.
 

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So propane would do nothing more then advance the timing at that point?
 

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92vr4ny said:
So propane would do nothing more then advance the timing at that point?
Propane advances the timing???

In any case propane does significantly reduce the intake charge temperature ... I will be doing some track testing with propane next time I go ... I'll have more results as to if it does anything for you without adding boost. An 80 degree drop in intake charge temperature very well might ... however at that point N20 would be better than propane ... since it does the same thing.
 

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oh it will not advance the timing at all? I thought higher octane would allow you to advance the timing with everything else being equal. I know shit about cars, just trying to learn. I also thought IPO said this was believe to be false about the lowering intake temps. I am so lost right now!
 

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Propane comes out of the tank at something like 30 below zero cant remeber if it is f or c anyway there is not really enough propane being injected to signif lower temps, what it does do is raisd your detanation point, higher octane. This will alow you to advance timeing add more boost, but your stock ecu will not be able to fully take advantage of the higher octane, would need a timeing controler of some sorts and alot of experiance with timeing, it can make or break u, however that boost controllor will take advantage and let u pump up the boost to a higher point. ALso Feral I am not able to understand how u can say only turbos matter, I mean shit if by some chance u can force enough air in, it has to get out somehow. Not to mention the more PSI the more heat the more friction, the more hp the motor uses to run itself. Heads are always important no matter what the type of car. Car is only as good as the weakest link.
 

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Quijinn said:
Propane comes out of the tank at something like 30 below zero cant remeber if it is f or c anyway there is not really enough propane being injected to signif lower temps, what it does do is raisd your detanation point, higher octane. This will alow you to advance timeing add more boost, but your stock ecu will not be able to fully take advantage of the higher octane, would need a timeing controler of some sorts and alot of experiance with timeing, it can make or break u, however that boost controllor will take advantage and let u pump up the boost to a higher point. ALso Feral I am not able to understand how u can say only turbos matter, I mean shit if by some chance u can force enough air in, it has to get out somehow. Not to mention the more PSI the more heat the more friction, the more hp the motor uses to run itself. Heads are always important no matter what the type of car. Car is only as good as the weakest link.
As for propane, I've watched propane alone (not twisting any other knob) drop my EGT's 40 degrees Celcius ... whether that was because of the temperature drop due to the propane or the higher octane or even just making the fuel/air rich ... I dunno ... but that's the evidence I have. I contest that if the quanitity of propane is too little so that the temperature will not affect the intake charge then the same is true of the octane. The fact is the intake charge on a turbo car is around 170-250 degrees F and if propane comes out at -70 F ... that is a big enough difference that even in a 10:1 ratio you will still shave 25-30 degrees off your intake charge temperature ... non-trivial. Same goes for octane though ... propane is only about 110 octane ... so in a 10:1 with 93 it only raises octane to 94.7 ... not really enough to explain staving off detonation as well as it does.

For heads ... I personally think heads are one of the best things you can do to any car ... however in a turbocharged car turbos are FAAARRR more important and do a lot more for the car. Yes, higher boost is bad but can be tolerated with the right fuel. The inverse is not true smaller turbos with big heads are still limited by the CFMs the turbos can flow ... end of story. If you are making power on a budget you invest in turbos first ... and then you look to see if you can do anything with the heads. If I had $5k to spend on a drag car I would not buy a pair awesome heads and then tiny turbos. I'd spend a good $4k on turbos and then bank the other $1k until I could afford the heads. In the meantime race gas would get me by as I run more boost to make power.
 

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Well as far as the octane I belive it raises it a bit more, but I am about done with this subject. If I was going to dump 5k into a "drag car" I would not start with a 3k/tt Do not get me wrong I love these cars and always wanted one, but 4k weight is hard to swallow, not to mention these cars are so much sweeter in turns then on a drag strip hehe JMHO I am accually thinging of rezzing my bike from the dead, 200 horse 750cc GSXR with 12 inch swing arm and raked front end, for about 3k I can get it back on the track I miss it
 

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Quijinn said:
Well as far as the octane I belive it raises it a bit more, but I am about done with this subject. If I was going to dump 5k into a "drag car" I would not start with a 3k/tt Do not get me wrong I love these cars and always wanted one, but 4k weight is hard to swallow, not to mention these cars are so much sweeter in turns then on a drag strip hehe JMHO I am accually thinging of rezzing my bike from the dead, 200 horse 750cc GSXR with 12 inch swing arm and raked front end, for about 3k I can get it back on the track I miss it
Oh your right there ... $5k doesn't really go too far on these cars ... but then again I am aiming for 9's with $10k in my stealth (including $1500 for the car) ... then again it's down to about 3000lbs right now and I am aiming to take another 300lbs off of it before it is ready for single digits. That car will make it to 9's purely on junkyard power.

For a roadracing car I think heads should be top of the list for things you need on one of these things, as well as the aluminum radiator ... I can't imagine trying to run 25psi with 117 octane gas on a roadcourse for long periods of time. That just can't be good ... hehe.
 

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Hey Feral, just wanted to let you know that your breakdown on turbos and airflow is really helpful.

Thanks man
 

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SN Greco said:
Hey Feral, just wanted to let you know that your breakdown on turbos and airflow is really helpful.

Thanks man
Well thanks for compliment ... nice to know someone reads some of this stuff. I'm not an expert or anything ... just an informed user :D.
 

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Quijinn said:
If I was going to dump 5k into a "drag car" I would not start with a 3k/tt Do not get me wrong I love these cars and always wanted one, but 4k weight is hard to swallow,
Not trying to start an arguement here but... Here we go, some one blameing the weight of the cars again. Anyone ever look inside the door jam of a Camaro? Not much difference.

If we are going to get these cars the respect they deserve we need to end the rumors such as "they are too heavy", "their 1320 times are too slow", "the AWD slows it down too much because of the weight and the drivetrain losses." Again, not trying to start any thing here. I just want to try and improve the image of the cars I love so much.

People are now posting respectable numbers with just a handful of mods. (Reguardless of the weight.) This thread was started to try and find some of the major restrictions in power production and has also some how gotten on the topic of drivetrain losses. So here is what I propose.

1) We have several tuner shops that focus on the 3/S. Some have AWD dynos in shop. Why don't any of them do a base line run, add a mod, do another run, so on and so on? They could post their results on their companies web site. It would even help sales.

2) I'm a student at Kettering Univeristy. We have a room with about a dozen engine dynos. The first time I saw what was in that room I about creamed myself. Surely I could talk the professor into letting me make a few dyno runs with my VR-4 engine. It's stock now. But I could take a couple easy to bolt on up grades with me and see what happens to BHP. Then when I stick it back in the car I could go up to Altered Atmosphere and do a few runs on their AWD dyno. Would any one else besides me be interested in some thing like this? It wouldn't be untill early next year at the soonest though. I have to get a new short block for my car.
 

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Bret Brinkmann said:


Not trying to start an arguement here but... Here we go, some one blameing the weight of the cars again. Anyone ever look inside the door jam of a Camaro? Not much difference.

If we are going to get these cars the respect they deserve we need to end the rumors such as "they are too heavy", "their 1320 times are too slow", "the AWD slows it down too much because of the weight and the drivetrain losses." Again, not trying to start any thing here. I just want to try and improve the image of the cars I love so much.

People are now posting respectable numbers with just a handful of mods. (Reguardless of the weight.) This thread was started to try and find some of the major restrictions in power production and has also some how gotten on the topic of drivetrain losses. So here is what I propose.

1) We have several tuner shops that focus on the 3/S. Some have AWD dynos in shop. Why don't any of them do a base line run, add a mod, do another run, so on and so on? They could post their results on their companies web site. It would even help sales.

2) I'm a student at Kettering Univeristy. We have a room with about a dozen engine dynos. The first time I saw what was in that room I about creamed myself. Surely I could talk the professor into letting me make a few dyno runs with my VR-4 engine. It's stock now. But I could take a couple easy to bolt on up grades with me and see what happens to BHP. Then when I stick it back in the car I could go up to Altered Atmosphere and do a few runs on their AWD dyno. Would any one else besides me be interested in some thing like this? It wouldn't be untill early next year at the soonest though. I have to get a new short block for my car.
Well to be fair in order to compete with only 3.0L of displacement we do have a fairly significant weight disadvantage. Take a look at the 9 second supras ... they are all under 3,000lbs ... same goes for DSM's ... all under 2,500lbs. This is why I am aiming for 2,800lbs for my stealth ... since it is a drag car it might as well compete at a drag car weight.

As for an engine dyno ... I have a friend who might be buying one ... so I can probably get some access to it. Still it takes a lot of time to go through it all ... only for research purposes. A shop might do it ... but they have no real reason to unless they can make lots of $$$ off of it. If a shop is already successful then they probably don't need to change anything.
 

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that’s not bad with the stock MAS, those #'s put you right around 500crank HP, that seems to be the limit of the stock mas...
so even if i had dr650's with a stock mas i sitll wont surpass 500 crank hp?
 

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Bret Brinkmann said:


Not trying to start an arguement here but... Here we go, some one blameing the weight of the cars again. Anyone ever look inside the door jam of a Camaro? Not much difference.


Ok again the 2 points on this are, and you should know that inertia plays a major factor in drag raceing. This never was ment to "insult" this car, I love it. But you can not get around physics no matter how much you want it to happen. The tendeny of a object to stay at rest untill acted apon by a outside force and then the fact that it takes great deals of power to move that force faster. Everytime you go 2 times as fast it takes closer to 4 times the power. Second point is why do you think things break so much with ppl posting upper 10 low 11's?? Because the car was never ment to do this. The drive train is smaller and does not have the 40 plus years of trial and error that the Camero and other cars have. Facts are facts and you can not over come that with simple wishing. My point is simple, if you want to drive the car every day be mild, if you dont care what breaks or have deep pockets then go wild.

Last thing is that bar in the door of the camero, yah most of us guys ganked that out first. I promise you, if you see many 10 sec Cameros they have killed off most the extra weight, then shoot NOS. They also have so many after market drive train parts its not funny. A Richmond bullet proof 6 speed for a Pontiac Ws1 costs about 2800 (just installed one for a friend), there good for well over 800hp in a 3500 lb car. Call and price one for our car....whats that?? they dont make one gosh :mad:

I love my stealth and its 4k lbs, but I am not going to try to run 10's and belive me its not cause I can't, I want to drive my car everyday its to pretty to be sitting in the garage waiting to drive.
 

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The answer is NO. The stock MAF is a restriction but it wont prevent you from making more power ... it just means you will have to run higher boost to make the same power someone else makes. Such is the same with the TB or heads or the intake tract in general. You may have to run 20psi to make what someone with a better MAF makes at 17psi ... but you will still put down the same power.
 

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I'm not trying to get around physics. I'm just trying to point out that the weight isn't as big a disadvantage as some people would believe. If we are talking about drag cars then the 3/S has a lot of dead weight on it that can be easily taken off. Feral, your car is a good example of that. You managed to take off about 800 pounds of that dead weight. I'm sure any car that can run single digits is well under it's stock weight. But even if those cars had that extra ballast they would still be fast right? Not as fast but still putting up respectable numbers. Those other cars have also had a lot longer development time. We are playing catch up. Our cars potential is still being explored. The basics are there we just haven't found out how to use them properly yet.

True people are breaking things when they run 10s and 11s but look at what drivetrain they are using. Mostly the 5 speeds. I can't say I have heard of too may 6 speed parts breaking because of raceing. I could be wrong on that though. But still, people are swapping out the 18 spline output shafts for the 25 spline output shafts and matching TCs. John is working on a new steel TC case that will with stand the forces subjected to it from 10 and 11 s passes and then some. Every fast car has gone through some thing like this. Now it's our turn thats all. We are getting around that obsticle slowly but surely. Soon the 5 speeds will be strong than the 6 speeds. (Won't that be nice? :D )

I'm not trying to start anything here. I just don't want any of us to make excusses saying that our cars just can't cut it. Sorry if I am comeing across as a jurk on this subject. I don't mean to.

Feral - Who makes that engine dyno you buddy is getting? We only have two kinds here. They are all the same except for one which is a lot bigger. I think it is for deisel engines. I see what you mean by the shop already makeing money. It just drives me crazy knowing that they have all those cars and parts.... And the chasis dyno is RIGHT THERE just twenty feet away. I would want to know how much of an increase a down pipe and no cats makes on a stock car compaired to say a new cam or something. Anyway, this is getting too long. I'll shut up now.
 

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Feral said:


Well to be fair in order to compete with only 3.0L of displacement we do have a fairly significant weight disadvantage. Take a look at the 9 second supras ... they are all under 3,000lbs ... same goes for DSM's ... all under 2,500lbs. This is why I am aiming for 2,800lbs for my stealth ... since it is a drag car it might as well compete at a drag car weight.

As for an engine dyno ... I have a friend who might be buying one ... so I can probably get some access to it. Still it takes a lot of time to go through it all ... only for research purposes. A shop might do it ... but they have no real reason to unless they can make lots of $$$ off of it. If a shop is already successful then they probably don't need to change anything.
It isn't dsm's weight that make them fast, it is the fact that they arent afraid of huge turbo's and lag. When you get to the track you want good track times. 3s people are still afraid of lag. Maybe when terry b's car is done he will show you that lag doesnt mean a slow car.
 
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