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japgto said:
<snip> Roger, this is not the first time you have pissed on something that either myself or Matt has offered, you should take the time to read the post before you start running your mouth about what is “crap”. I never said they would make 500HP with stock fuel, what I said was they are capable of supporting 500HP.
Not to add more piss to this then there already is, but the original post *strongly implied, just by reading it* that with these turbo's and a fuel pump upgrade, you could achieve 500hp. That is just simply not true and Roger wanted to point that out. Regardless of any technical grammar issues or fuzzy English used to interpret the original post, that's what it implied, especially if you are a novice or new to the 3SI world.

Thanks for clearing that up though.

Matt
 

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Let me see if I'm following this correctly. High intake temps are one of the direct causes of detonation, right? So which turbo will give me the safest output at a given pressure? Am I right to say that a [email protected] will give me a cooler intake charge than a 13g or DR-500 at 13 psi (assuming stock intercoolers)? I'm not as concerned about the raw power ratings as I am about making that power as safely as possible.
 

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Gatecrasher said:
Let me see if I'm following this correctly. High intake temps are one of the direct causes of detonation, right? So which turbo will give me the safest output at a given pressure? Am I right to say that a [email protected] will give me a cooler intake charge than a 13g or DR-500 at 13 psi (assuming stock intercoolers)? I'm not as concerned about the raw power ratings as I am about making that power as safely as possible.

Yes, this is generally correct. Which is why I'm curious about the design of these new "13G'ish" turbo's. I'm curious to see how they influence detonation as compared to regular 13G's. Like I said, there's really only one way to find out.


Matt
 

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Gatecrasher,

If I'm understanding this correctly ;) the 15G turbo will give you a cooler discharge, but will also give you more air. The 15G is more efficient, so it works less to make more. It also requires more (fuel and the like). But I would say yes to the question of a 15G output being cooler than a 13G (or even this new one). I'm sure Matt has way more information about this than I do...
 

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Mark, once again, the nail on the head award is yours:

"If I'm understanding this correctly the 15G turbo will give you a cooler discharge, but will also give you more air."

Exactly. And that's the blessing AND the curse. ;)

"The 15G is more efficient, so it works less to make more."

Efficient in that manner, and also generating less heat during the compression process. Which is all the way better, if the system can handle the extra requirements:

"It also requires more (fuel and the like)."

:)

"But I would say yes to the question of a 15G output being cooler than a 13G (or even this new one)."

Yep, most certainly. The problem is the turbo's efficiency- it can certainly get the output at a lower temperature, but you'll be wasting the true power of the turbo and, in an inadvertent manner, creating a drag on the whole system: the 15's spool slower than the 13s. You will also have to run your fuel at the comparable settings for the lower boost, which becomes a hardware mismatch. All of this is theoretical though, until we have the hard copy to back it up. I will say this for the record though, Jeff- you'd be much better served purchasing the turbos for your chosen output, thereby making them run in their effeciency and with appropriate lag time, and saving the car with bigger injectors and fuel equipment, rather than pushing the injectors to the limit. But you already knew that. :)

"I'm sure Matt has way more information about this than I do..."

And that's the crux of this, now isn't it? The more information we have the better suited we all will be when it comes to making these cars best suited to our own tastes.

And to everybody in this pissing contest- say what you're trying to say, and make sure it comes out right. If it means spending an extra 5 minutes typing more and running spellcheck, do it. Because you can keep yourself from looking stupid, and quite possibly keep yourself in business. Information is the most valued of commodities here, so don't be persnikety with it because of "the competition". You will keep your customers, and good name, the more open you are with your practices and products.

Kenneth
 

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In layman's terms....??

These DR500 turbos will run less boost (14 psi) but all the way through redline as opposed to the stock turbos peaking at 15 psi but dropping before redline? In the end, the car with the stockers would probably make more hp at a certain point but the car with the DR500 would have a better 1/4 time because it held boost throughout.. With a dyno chart, the graph for a car with stock turbos would have a higher peak hp but the curve would be steeper on either side whereas with this hybrid turbo we would see a smoother hp graph and lower peak hp...? Well guys please tell me if I am right or wrong.. I am trying to simplify this so I can see the pluses and minuses of such an upgrade as opposed to regular 13g or the larger 15g turbos. I don't have a TT but its in my future!

Adam
 

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I am not the most knowledgeable on turbo physics, so some of you help me out here:

I understand that running >14-15 psi with the stock fuel system is bad, because the injectors, ECU and fuel pump cannot provide enough fuel to match the increase in air flow, and also because the stock 9b turbos are far less efficient at this higher boost and blows a lot more hot air.
I understand why these upgrades are necessary.

I have been considering what upgrades to make and in which order. I have considered upgrading to the 15Gs and higher efficiency intercoolers in the near term, and then going ahead with injectors, fuel computer and pump at some point later. My reasoning is, I would continue to run the stock setup, NOT EXCEEDING 14 psi, with the 15Gs and new intercoolers, and once I had upgraded my fuel system, only then increase the boost further. Why do the turbos and intercoolers first? Personal preference. The 15Gs and intercoolers will be far more efficient at 14 psi in the meantime. Now after having read the previous posts, and some comments about differing amounts of flow, is this reasoning incorrect? I want to understand what's going on here before I do something really stupid.
 

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kalla, your reasoning is correct and your plans sound. Ignoring the pissing contest above, there are simply too many variables between different turbos and cars with different mods to make any direct, unqualified comparisons.

Air flow: contrary to what most people understand the same volume of air <B>always</B> flows through a cylinder. The only difference is in the density, which is very low at idle and very high under high boost. What most people refer to as "air flow" is really the volume of ambient air that flows through the MAS for a car, or the amount of air flow that a turbo can support. Now saying that a turbo can support 400 cfm, let's say, really tells us nothing at all! The design of that particular turbo may allow 400 cfm but only in a boost and flow range that is beyond the region where our (1.5L - half the engine for each turbo) engine can perform. The 9B, 13Gs, and 15Gs are proven technology that are designed correctly for our cars. Other designs will have to demonstrate they are correct also.

FWIW, I ran 15Gs and Alamo ICs for a year before upgrading the fuel system. At about 15 psi, the stock fuel system was over-taxed - up here in Colorado where the air is thin. A lower max psi may be more prudent where the air is denser.


[Edited by Jeff Lucius on 10-18-2000 at 02:55 PM]
 

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Twin Power Pellets
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Jeff... when does your powerband look like? I am just curious about whether or not the lag on thsoe 15G turbos may be the cause for your first 1/4 mile run being a little on the slower side.
... i mean... the lag IN ADDITION to it being your first time at the staging lights. :D

you should take your car out there another time... so you can see just how low your car can go ;)
 

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I too may be way off base here (but I don't think so ;)) but I think you may still run into problems (datalog for sure). The 15G turbo is not only more efficient, it can push (discharge) more air. So it is pushing more air at 14psi than your 9B is. I was always under the impression that the amount and quality of air as opposed to the compression of the air. A 15G turbo @ 14psi is going to create more air than a 9B @ 14psi. Thus it will require more fuel, and/or some other agent to control knock. The fuel system would be taxed with that turbo at the same place as the 9B.
 

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A lot of this is correct, but what some of you are forgetting is where our cars begin to knock. That is about 15 psi w/ stock fueling, sure, but it is at high rpms -- where the boost is already beginning to fall. Keeping the boost to high rpms, say at 14 psi to redline, will definitely cause the car to knock, when it was in danger of knocking before.

The whole thing about Roger blasting the original post was okay, to me. It seemed to me, also, that DR1 was trying to imply (to newbies) that you could get 500 hp from 14 psi held to redline. Now a lot of us know this is not true, and so we asked for a clarification for those who did not know. I don't see the fault behind that. I have occasionally disagreed w/ Roger myself, but I think that in general, he has the 3si population's best interests in mind. It seems to me, that while technically the statements about 500 hp and 14 psi were in different sentences and did not have to be correlated, that some definitely shady business practices were in use here. But that is just my opinion.

I have bought products from all 3 major 3si distributors (DR1, AAM, GTPro), but this makes me wonder about 1 of them.
 

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Still, pushing 15 psi through the same orifice, same substance (air) is the same CFM. Only with bigger turbos, your temp stays down, decreasing the size of the air molecules and allowing more cfm at the same PSI. The boys at DR were saying you can run these turbos through the entire boostable range at a constant PSI---up to 14 psi on pump gas with stock injectors and aftermarket pump. In fact, I have yet to see someone run more than 15-16psi on pump gas past 5000 w/o race gas or injection. Yah the bigger turbo can hold like 23psi to redline, but the engine will knock with pump at about 15psi with any of them. The 15g output temp compared with 9b or 13g is low enough that it needs more fuel than the 360cc inj can push even with a new pump. I think what they are selling is a turbo that can put out more than 14psi, but is most efficient running within the tolerable limits that the engine is capable of ingesting. Its perfect for those who will never run race gas or injection, but want the maximum power from the stock setup. That means a broader torque and horsepower curve than a stock equipped 9b car with BPU---not any more peak power--cause as Roger and others have pointed out, you can not make much more peak power from the fuel injectors we have than 380-400 h.p.

Sam
 

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I don't know that I 100% agree, though I certainly agree with your call to datalog. However, when you move to the 15G, engine (and manifold) displacement and volume remain the same. The quantitative mass of air that ends up in your cylinders is therefore a function of boost pressure and temperature, since displacement volume is static. PV = nRT, remember that one from chemistry.

So the other controlling variable in this whole deal is intake charge temperature, which is kept down through the use of intercoolers and more efficient turbos. Using the stock 9bs and intercoolers, the intake charge will be hotter than it would using upgraded intercoolers and turbos. The amount of fuel required depends on the MASS of the air in the cylinder, right, not the volume? So you will get more mass in the cylinder at the same psi with a lower temperature.

The real question is, between the stock and the upgraded system, how different will be the intake temperature, and hence the air masses, at 14 psi? I suppose this is where the use of the datalogger would be necessary.
 

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Mark,

Boost pressure is measured in the plenum. 12 psi boost from a 15G, GT368, or 9B at the same RPM, in the same gear, in the same engine, with the same engine load, and same ambient air/pressure conditions is <B>exactly the same "air flow"</B> <I>unless</I> the air temp in the plenum is different. Larger turbos may or may not have higher efficiency curves where our engines can use them. Larger does not automatically mean better. Now consider this, if heads are ported correctly, air flow goes up and boost goes down!

kalla,

The TMO datlogger only reports what the ECU knows. If using the stock MAS then only the ambient air temp entering the MAS is reported. It will take additional temp sensors (like Amahoser has) to find out what the air temp is in the plenum - which is really the only place that matters. I plan on installing temp and pressure sensors from the turbo to the plenum this winter.
 

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That's a good point. It might be very educational to put a temp probe in the plenum before the upgrade and do some runs before and after upgrading to watch the behavior. However, does this ambient air temp difference skew the datalogger's output?
 

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Billvp...


here is a clip from my post

“it sees 13-14 PSI with the stock fuel injectors!!! the car will NOT make 500ho with 14 psi!!!”


and Billvp, now you are making a crack at my business practices? If you will read my post, not even 1 time have I ever stated that you can make 500hp at 14psi!! if fact I stated the opposite. I made my post after reading Tony’s post to clarify. What I have designed these turbos to do… here is a clip from my post “

""I will reply to this sense these are Dynamic Racing turbos!
the Idea of these turbos is that you can run 13-14 psi (and hold it all the way to 7000rpm) with them with stock injectors, and pump gas. Stomp the hell out of a stock turbo car maxing his 9b's (AKA B2Small lol) peeking to 18or so psi and dropping off to 10psi by redline (and having to run race gas because of the spiking past 15psi)

now if at a later date you want to run more boost and up-grade your injectors these turbos can make 20+psi if needed “"


now as for my business practices, I came up with these turbos to help the 3si crowd I will never make the money back that I have put into developing and testing these turbos. If you only new how little I am making on these turbos to keep the price down. (I make about the same selling a FIPK!), but you know the saying “no good deed goes un-punished”. I tune these cars because I love them and think thy have been passed over far too long for there much deserved fame. I don’t just sell part I sell power!! (this is why you don’t see a lot of parts that are out there on my site, because if I test it and it dose not work I don’t sell it end of story). I sold a much more profitable business than this so I could devote 100% of my time to Dynamic Racing because I love it and dividing my time was too hard. So please don’t ever call my business practices into question. I put my hart and sole into these cars, and the parts I sell, AND NEVER not even 1 time have I tried to deceive any of you….I was even trying/ testing wast gate set-up's so a boost controler would not be needed to run 13psi with these turbos. (that rely sounds like somthing some 1 with "bad business practices"would do right, try and save you $400+ on a boost controler if you choose not to use 1 and only want 13psi. the only person that would be bad for is me and other venders (maby sell less boost controlers)) My posts clearly state that you CAN NOT make 500hp @ 14psi!
Maby I made a mistake by posting anything on here before the turbos with a full explanation were on my web page, but I have always felt that you all here deserve to know 1st and like to be kept on the cutting edge of new parts for the 3000gt/stealth but after that post I will NEVER!! Make this mistake again.

Thank you and good day.

[Edited by SnakeSkinner on 10-18-2000 at 06:38 PM]
 

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Business practices right or wrong, it does not matter. What matters is the information that hits first, and the manner in which it is brought to the attention of those concerned. The fact that it was extrapoloated in such an expedient and uncoached manner is what has caused this whole discussion into being. Folks just want the straight up information, and not a lot of blown up hooey.

My question to both Matt and Japgto is this- with the way that these turbos were first explained, had no one bothered to extrapolate the truth, and you had a customer, who, inadvertently through lack of knowledge and foresight, bought these turbos, installed them, did the simple output math for what he would require in the means of boost to strech his numbers to 500 horse, did so, and blew the block straight to hell, what would your reaction be? That he didn't pay attention? It wouldn't take that skewed of english to make the assumption that the announcement and the following statements were called out upon.

I hope this all makes those looking to do business with the 3/S take heed in what they create and the way they present it. I would not consider being taken to task over something that I spent good hard time, blood, sweat, and money to fabricate for these people a bitch, but a burden of proof- if it's truly as good as you can prove, then you will do nothing more than stregnthen your business.

Kenneth
 

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Like I stated you will NEVER see a post like this again! I did not meen for this post ever to be placed (as you can see I did not start this thred) If you want to know anything about my parts you can look at my web page or give me a call. I will be glad to explain..
 

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Guys, there were too much posts lately so I couldn't read them all.

First, yes, I'm very skeptic and the cause is simple as we from the old world are not using that great words an do not cry out when we have foudn something new before it is fully tested out. In the US some things are advertised and even sold before they are built. This is impossible here so this is why I'm skeptic.

I bever said that the turbos are bad, not at all. But sometimes I wonder why the people who advertise the great stuff (and this turbo for is good) put turbos and power together. It is, simply said, wrong if anyone is saying that turbos are capable of 500hp. Sorry, this is wrong, because a turbo is only compressing air and delivers it to the intake but it is NOT responsible for the power ! The energy is comming from the fuel and the resulting power is calculated out of the amount consumed. To burn the fuel correctly a specific amount of air is needed what results in the A/F ratio. This air is delivered by the turbos of course and the result is nothing else than a high compression ratio in the chamber.

Now, even the little b's "can" produce 500hp. I have resports from people running 1.32bars of boost. At this amount the peak hp is around 5700 and no they cannot hold it for long. Here comes the very tricky dyno test in play. Simply put the car in 2nd on the dyno lett it slowly roll to 5000rpm and then stamp on it. The result is 1.28 bars at 5700 rpm and around 480hp.

Now I say : THE 9B's ARE CAPABLE OF 500hp ! Am I right or wrong ? Please comment :)

To be honest, I recognized that on the old continent, we are calculating first then find and put the matching parts together and install it. Then the theoretical values and the now measured ones are compared and then the differences are analyzed. If the differences are too much, then there is a problem in the design and must be eliminated. In my point of view, too much tuners are working the "try and error" way... this is not the way we prefer here and this is why we have so many dynos allover our small country. We call this engineering and is more than a hobby. I just remember one of the first NA cars who got a TT system under the hood. I calculated a max boost of 5psi and 6 psi if running overrich but is dangerous. The result was good at 5 psi and the engine blew up at boost above 6 psi -> rebuild and running only low boost now (if it is on the road again) or the rods an pistons are upgraded too with lower compression ratio and some more $$$. The same applies to any intercooler design as NO tuning shop is able to give yo uany figures about the efficiency and is sold to you by sayin "hey it's the best thing you can get and it works damn good, I promise you". They do not lie but I expect a little more information from then, when they have it. Whenever I came out with a smaller FMIC that fits the front without removing the crash bar (violates any insurance here !) then for sure I have temp measurnments over the whole powerband, pressure ratios, pressure loss, pressure build-up difference and so on.

Again, this is the way we work here and I never say a product is good or bad. Just ask Brian about the ARC that I didn't liked at all in the beginning. I then spoke with the developer directly and he gave me answers to all my questions. Finally I tested it out, opened it and analyzed how it works and found out it does what it should better than other solutions.

All in all ... happy boosting everyone :)

PS: I'm sure that this turbos will become a good solution for more power in the upper end as Matt knows the goal they are aiming to. But please remember, after 15 psi of boost fuel upgrade IS NECESSARY. The minimum is pump and a fuel raising regulator or bigger injectors and a fuel controller.

[Edited by Roger G. on 10-18-2000 at 05:57 PM]
 

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Twin Power Pellets
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okay... now that everyone has simmered down...
let me ask some questions.

exactly how much was it?
(too lazy to hit the back button on my browser:))
and what type of housing are you using... a hybrid with a TD-04 exhaust housing?

also... Being that Roger and Jeff and Matt are all here ... how can i get 700hp out of my Civic?!?!
;)


take care guys...:D
 
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