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Discussion Starter #1
I had dinner last night with a friend and his boss, and the conversation drifted to the boss's Porshe. This led to a friendly bench racing session that I want to get your opinions on. He has an '88 911 (bone stock). I have a '91 Stealth Twin Turbo with the following mods: Ported 15G turbos, ported exhaust manifolds, gutted pre-cats, ATR Elininator down-pipe (no main cat), ATR cat-back, Akimoto intake, Hallamn boost controller, Magnecore wires, and fresh stock plugs gapped at .034.

Let me start off by saying I really like 911s and recognize that they have some advantages over my car, most of which he was quick to point out:

His car will continue to appreciate, while mine continues to depreciate (probably true)

His car has a racing heritage, while mine does not (true)

His car is 1000 lbs lighter (probably true)

There is a certain 'prestige' about driving a Porshe (true, but my car turns heads, too)

Anyway, I think he SERIOUSLY underestimates what a TT Stealth can do. His first comment was on the weight disadvantage. He said he doubted that such a heavy car could do 0 - 60 in under 7 seconds. When I told him my car was probably closer to low 4s he looked at me like I had two heads (I've never timed it, but I think low 4s are reasonable).

Next we moved to the quarter mile. He said his car could run 14s stock. Big deal. I told him I've never run my car at the track, but based on the mods I could probably run low 12s or even high 11s (with practice). Again he thought I was nuts (what do you guys think?). In the end, he did concede that my car (despite it weight) could probably beat his in the quarter.

Next we talked about a road course. He said since his car was designed from the start to be a race car, and my car was just a heavy street car, he would BLOW MY DOORS OFF on a road course such as Pocono Raceway. I've never been to Pocono so I don't know what the layout is in terms of turns and straightaways. I think he may have a slight advantage in turns (but I'm not sure since I have AWD and AWS), but I think I would have a considerable advantage on straightaways do to my HP advantage. He was not convinced by my argument and repeated that he would blow my doors off. What do you guys think?

Anyone have specific experience racing 911s in different conditions (drag, highway, road course, etc?). Just curious to get your thoughts.

Thanks,

Mike
 

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An '88 911?? Porches are nice.. but an '88 non turbo is nooo match for your mod stealth.. you'll leave him WAYYY behind in the streets...

As for on the track.. I don't know how Pocono is like.. but our TTs perform extremely well on BIGGER/FASTER tracks.. although, open track racing will depend a lot on drivers' skills!!

I've ran with a few Porches on the open track.. the only ones that impresses and could blows me away are the 'race tuned' TT Porches.. (haven't raced the newer stock AWD TT Porches tho).. I know the Porche has an awesome history therefore their owners tends to look down on Jpn sports car.. just like the Vette Owners!! I say you go out there and smoke his butt!!!!!
 

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mike,
how you doing? yeah? a 911 turbo? well, I have raced boxters and 993s and no problem our vr4s can take them on the highway but don't know about the track...but if it's a turbo...we'll have a little difficulty with stock turbos. but, knowing the fact that you have 15Gs...that should be no problem for you hehehehehehe. I remember seeing wraith put up a msg that he raced a late model 911 turbo and beat him in the long run. heheheeheh VR4 RULES!!! heheehhe. alright take care...and did you put in the 15Gs yet? if so, how do they feel like..what's the difference across the powerband?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Fastboy,

His car is a NON-TURBO! BTW, still holding my breath for Mr. UPS man to bring my new turbos
. I guess the holidays are slowing down shipping since they were shipped last Thursday. Hopefully today...
 

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Sounds like another guy that thinks a brand name is a ticket to the winners circle. Porsche have made some incredible machines, and they have made some dogs (924's, most 944's, boxsters, and 928s). Most of the road races they won were not in stock form. To put it in perspective, in '76 Road and track did a shoot out between the 911 and the vette, and the vette killed it (and yes, the vette is a heavier car, that was"designed for street racing"). Obviously since he thinks you do 7's, he knows nothing of our cars, and won't appreciate them until he gets spanked silly. The arrogance and ignorance of guys like that is why I rarely fear Porsches. Talking to them is like reading a Porsche brochure-not much knowlege of any other cars, or the how's and why's of racing. Doubt if his car would do less than 14.5.
 
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I've been to a local road course and have timed an 88 911 turbo and myself in my 92 VR4. We were within a second of each other on a 2 mile 13 turn track. So given my experience I don't think either one would blow the other away. It has alot to do with the driver and the risks they are comfortable taking with their baby.

BTW: I was faster!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Scott,

Thanks for your insight but keep in mind this particular car is a NON-turbo (your post mentioned the times for a turbo).

Does anyone know what horsepower the '88 Turbo and Non-turbo 911s were rated at?
 

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Appaerntly your boss has no clue as to the performance of modern day turbo cars. An '88 911 is an EXCELLENT car. But from what he said ... he HAS NO CLUE. The only point he MIGHT have is a road course. An only on a REALLY tight road course. And only if he's a good driver. Now, I didn't notice in your posts about any handling upgrades but if your car is stock suspension and brakes, he MIGHT get you on a tight road course.... that's about it... I've run with the Porsche Club and those little cars are fast!!!

Jose Soriano
[email protected]
 

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Hey, guys. I passed the address of this thread on to my friend and he showed it to his boss (AKA Mr. Porsche). Here's the email I got back from Mr. Porsche in its entirety. Enjoy!


Michael, I certainly did view your post, and it made my day!
I didn't have to read very far to realize these Cheapanese TT admirers have more in common than their ugly cars. Not only do they drive inferior sports cars, but they seem to have inferior brain power as well.

How they became so confused by your extremely clear question is quite humorous. So some think it is a turbo, others think we discussed street racing, yet others bring up 924's. (why not bring the starion or the dart, no those are some fine autos)

Why not just look to facts, not your I would guess I do 0-60 under 4, or I would think I do the quarter in the 11's.

Just read which car was voted best handeling car in the world. The carrera 4 beat out every ferrari, lotus etc. Although they did not stoop so low as to test your minvan, er stealth bomb.

I loved the one from one of these experts that stated he has diced with many twin turbo 911's, but hasn't yet raced an awd twin turbo. Well that is the only 911 that ever was twin turbo'd.

And where was the Smealth when R&T tested for the highest top speed cars?

Now imagine if my 911 had all that shit done to it?
Why is mine bone stock, because I guess I do not sense a need to compensate for my cars poor, shitass design. It is quite enjoyable stock.

What did it do stock. Stealth 0-60 in 7 seconds vs 911 5.6 according to R&T. What does the twin turbo do 0-60 in 4 seconds.

I would think you feel your car is doing 11 second quarter miles because the cheap thing creaks and vibrates so much it seems way faster than it is.

Of courtse the 911 TT has 424HP and weighs 2800lbs. the Minivan TT stock 300 hs and weighs 4000lbs.

I wouldn't ask those freaking geniuses to do the math, but it is quite clear the hp to weight is quite and advantage on the 911 side.

I also liked how they all responded to the value aspect of your post. Not many seemed wanting to discuss that one. And of course that would mean they would have to add up all their 12 grade mentality hop up parts that increase the value soo much on that K-car of yours.
And the owners are so dumb that the same freaking car is sold with two different names from two different companies. To make profits you think?

Why no. It is so when you go out in the mall parking lot it cuts the chance by 50% that the dumbass person that picked the smealth will not try to open the wrong ugly cheap fat fake plastic sports car. and i really like that option they have of adjusting the sound for when you want to stealth around town in your high school boy racer. I heard next year they are putting big decals on the hood just like they did with the trans aam to really wow the senior class crew!!!!!!!

I enjoyed our beers and your bragging.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Oh, BTW, I've emailed back and forth with this guy a few times and I know he's reading the board today. Back me up here guys!
 

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This guy has to be kidding Mike. If he is not tell your Friend to quit his job, the company is going to fold in a few months !!! I have never read so many put-downs in one letter. Maybe he is trying to compensate since he spent all that money on a car that can not keep up with ours? I have never been one for Japanese cars but I will admit that the fit and finish on the 3S cars is very good and better than most domestic cars. As for the road racing issue and weight, we may be heavier but we can accelerate alot sooner out of the corners.

Later,

Kevin
[email protected]
 

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This guy is so car-illiterate it's unbelievable. He's talking about us talking about other Porsches and then he compares our cars to a 911 TT. The bottom line is for the price, our cars are the best bargain out there. He can drive around his $60,000 Porsche and think he's cool till he pulls up next to a 3K TT at a stoplight.
 

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to "Mr. Porsche":


I will annihilate an old-ass 88 Porsche non-turbo (cheap) on the street. I will absolutely destroy it. Stock versus stock.
Guys with the turbo old-ass Porsche's won't race me. I guess they know better.

This "guy" talking down to Stealths in a car with the modern styling equivalent of a 76 Stingray has to wake up. The 80's are over pal, Flashdance is out of the theatres and your 11 year old car would never, ever touch mine.

Yes an AWD 911 STOCK can take our cars. It's also more than twice as expensive. With a couple thousand bucks in mods our cars date rape the new 911 in the q/m like our car's stock performance does to your piss poor antique.

As for looks? Motor Trend "Supercar Shootout" edition pits the 911 AWD, the Viper, The Lotus Esprit TT, the C5, Supra and the 3000GT against each other. If you read the article, the VR4 got the most looks from people at the Las Vegas racetrack they used for testing. Keep your Footloose blasting bar of soap out of my way.

How's your decade old ride do in the rain? Ever get 4 people in it? LOL.

Prestige? From an 88 Porsche? Ya, about the same prestige as a brand new Neon.

I have a lot of female friends, and never have I seen any of them say "WOW! AN OLD ASS PORSCHE! WHAT A HIGH ROLLER!"

I have a 93 Stealth Twin Turbo, Deep Blue with factory 17" chrome rims. I would LOVE to see who's car gets more LOOKS. I've had many people tell me I'm driving "their dream car". Anyone here dreaming about an old-ass base model 911?

I would absolutely, and completely, violate your old POS "porsche" on the street. Wow, you can run 14's? OOH AAH. So can MR2's.


I bet you tell people "I drive a Porsche". Not "I drive an 80's Porsche". Bah. I'm surprised yours even runs. Most of the old Porsche's I see in my town are blowing more blue smoke than a broken chainsaw.

Please don't bother our message forum with comments about your low technology Billy Joel go-cart. If you're such a big fan of the AWD 911 why not go bother the Viper guys, who paid less for their cars too (and BTW, the Viper owned the 911 in 600 foot slalom so "best handling" goes to the Viper based on numbers). Better yet, I bet if you traded in your ride on a $100,000 911 you'd only have to pay $99,500.

Anyways, if you want to compare your car the Stealth you're setting up a race you can't win.

Ya our cars weigh a lot, power leather seat, 110 lbs of noise dampening (we don't like the road noise rattling go-cart "prestige" that you enjoy) plus AWD certainly don't come without a price. Yet we all destroy Mustangs, Hondas, and, well, old ass Porsches because we got some balls to go with it. What's your excuse?
 

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Hey Mr. Porsche...

The 80's called and says that it wants
it's car back...

-= nav =-

"I KISS YOU!!!... (www.emahir.com)"
 

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LMAO
Thats the funniest thing ive ever read snowblower! thanks for the laugh!

Jayson
94 3000GT
 

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So when and why did we start comparing the 911 TT (or an illegal in the US 959) against a Stealth TT? I thought the bench racing was all about a stock '88 911 and Mike's modified TT Stealth. These cars are drastically different, I would suggest your friend's boss educate himself before he shoots off at the mouth. It was fun reading his reply none-the-less.

First off, a stock '88 911 makes 214hp and less than that in torque (if my sources are good) and weighs in at ~3,000lbs (guess) while a stock Stealth makes 300 - 320 hp (depending on year) and equal torque weighing in at ~3,800lbs. 14.0lbs / hp for the Porshe & 12.3lbs / hp for the Stealth. Factor in the incredible 60ft times the AWD allows us and you get the following results:

Average track performance (VR4 in stock trim, from 7/95 Motor Trend)
13.5second 1/4mile at 101.6mph
I believe an '88 Porsche may find the 14's if really pushed (and a little tail wind). Heck, three different 911's were tested within a year of the VR4 numbers I gave above by Motor Trend (a '95 Cabriolet, '95 Carrera, and '96 Targa), the results ranged from a best of 13.5 to 14.5 seconds and this with 3.6L output at 270 - 282 hp.

Truth is, there are not too many Porsches out there we need to fear racing. Don't get me wrong, there are some extremely quick Porsches that will give Vipers fits. The 911 turbo is truly a modern age icon. The more desirable Porsches such as the 911 Carrera 4 will retain its value (still a good $120k) but I don't think your friend's boss will be selling his '88 for $38,000 (? Not sure what an'88 sold for) anytime soon.

Even on the race track, he will not walk away from you, the same Motor Trend test shows the VR4 completing the Slalom at 68.9mph while the three Porsche cars ran a 69.1, 66.3, & 67.2. The braking was similar however our cars do experience fade earlier due to our high weight and small brakes. Porsche has a long history of designing some of the absolute best brake systems. I apologize to your friend's boss if by chance his '88 outperforms the '95 and '96 911s I'm comparing to.

And lastly, I've got extremely similar mods to your car and have run a best of 12.23 @ 113 mph. I'm still a novice at the track and have reached traps as high as 118.8 which indicate I should be in the 11's. Always next time.

In short, race this turkey, let him make up all the rules if that's what it takes. And let us all know how it turns out.

Sorry for the length, however, being a Chrysler employee I couldn't pass up on his K-car and Minivan comments. I'd love to debate further, but I've already put most of you asleep.

Thanks for the humor and happy motoring,
Joe Gonsowski
'92 Stealth R/T TT http://www.detroit3si.8m.com/

[This message has been edited by Joe G. (edited December 20, 1999).]
 

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Ahem, Snowblower, you wanna retract some of your statements? I also own a 76 Stingray, which rides real sweet since I dropped in the drive train from a '90 vette in it. That car gets way more looks and compliments than my RT TT, and admittedly, is way more of a classic than 3S's will probably ever be. Parts are cheap, mechanics understand them, and I don't have the problem of owning a car with a Rodney Dangerfield complex (seems like 3s's don't get no respect!). Handling is sufficient, since lets face it, only a couple of guys autocross here, the rest of us are only int. in 1/4 mi. times. Not turning on you brother, but try not to sound as ignorant as the porcshe idiot you are arguing with. I understand that it may not be your "style" in cars. Additionally, have YOU ever tried to get 4 people into these cars? Give me a break! I'd only put 1 person that I don't really like in the back. Seats look nice, but anything past a 20 min. drive is torture. As far as the rain performance goes, it is a nice feature, but way over blown. Our cars are NOT infallible in bad weather, and may give some the false sense of confidence to get into worse trouble than they would have in a less sure footed car. Frankly, when people keep bringing it up, I laugh. It reminds me of a guy who was jealous of my car in high school (an 88 stang GT) cuz he bought a Nissan Sentra. He made a point of telling everyone his car would KILL mine in a race.....up a hill...in the snow.
But back to the topic at hand. Clearly our friend has selective memory. He is excellent at quoting the specs from our base models (7.0 sec et's) and the 911 twin turbos. Neither of which are the 2 cars being discussed. His car could not keep up with the 911 twin turbo, and Mikes car would walk all over a stealth base. What he needs to do is learn about his particular model of porsche, then compare that to other cars. It sounds like he is simply re-gurgitating what the porsche sales rep promised him (Oh, yeah, you'll be the fastest thing on the road with this! SIgn here please...). Just like when I bought the vette, the guy said "You can date a different girl everyday of the week with this..." whatever -did quite well though :') Porsche made some Supercars. His was not one of them though.

Incidentally, I looked at a 911 myself at one point, but my doctor (who had owned one, along with a Benz, and 5-series Bmw), discouraged me from them. Didn't like all of the maintenance they required for what they delivered. Guess thats the thing about all of that "heritage, expense and fine engineering".Anybody can design a car that runs great.... for a couple of months at a time.

[This message has been edited by Diablo (edited December 21, 1999).]
 

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I have a tougher time with F-body cars than the older Porsches. My neigbor has a 99 Carerra N/A. I drove it and it is very spartan. No wonder its so quick, there is nothing to it. He is a Lexus salesman and tells me he is disappointed in the lack of build quality in the car for the price as compared to the cars he sells. He said he bought it cause he was sick of looking at Lexus cars all day long, but he said one takes for granted the quality of a Japanese vehicle because of the name and really can not get your mind to accept the truth until the two cars are side by side and compared. I think his N/A P. puts out about 290 horse and when I drove it, I noticed all the power was high up in RPM. It felt very docile at low speed, but pulled very good, once you downshift and tach it up. It handles excellent. With a professional driver it would give my car a run, but I doubt any average guy could beat me in one. The 99 is far far superior to the 88 in every way, so your boss is really driving a glorified V.W. when compared to our cars. Our stock stereos are better, and you do not have to pay extra for floor mats and color options. Without buying all the options, the car is pretty crappy for $65,000 for a non-turbo. Tell your boss to get off his high horse and live in reality and buy a vette! I can buy an old Ferrari too, but just cause it says Ferrari means nothing. His 911 was ok in the 80s (since he could not afford the turbo), but cars get better all the time and he is outclassed. Compare a 95 VR4 with a 95 TT AWD Porsche and our cars are not in the same class
 

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Give this link to Mr Pork. http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/auto3/9907AUCTBP.html

The 911 in that test is far superior than his old 88 911. Even the new 911 have problems passing a 91 3000GT VR-4. Yes the 911 was faster in this test but compare price and think about how i would have ended if the VR-4 had a simple boost controller... BTW My boss drives a 92 C2 Cab and he have no chance against my VR-4 /Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu
 
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