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UP THE IRONS!!!
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Before reading this, understand that these aren't 100% my views and I'm not telling anyone how they should or should not feel about how the US is currently handling the situation...nonetheless I think some good, valid, and intelligent points are brought out and are worth some consideration. http://americanlibertyfoundation.org/911/5.htm
 

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Pure BS, that WAS an act of War, I was in NYC on Sept 11, it looked like a battlefield. This guy is a moron, "How would you feel if the govt of Afghanistan wanted to extradite you?" Now we r worried about this psycho butcher's feelings?!?!?!?! Jesus., FUCK HIM & HIS FEELINGS
The US may do some things overseas that pisses off other countries & it Does have a history of mucking about in other countries affairs like the Middle East, Vietnam, & South America & Africa. But Bin Laden is STILL a psychotic murderer. He probably would have been a serial killer if he hadnt found this cause. ASSHOLE

Wrath, none of this is directed at you
 

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I cant understand how this Browne clown can say Sept 11 was not an act of war. A criminal act is when u steal a car, knock over a bank, kill 1 or several people. Hijacking 4 airplanes with military precision & ramming them into buildings murdering 5,000+ innocents is WAY beyond knocking over a 7-11 & killing the cashier.
Lets see, the Taliban who r the governing body of Afghanistan harbored & enabled & allowed Bin Laden to thrive, Bin Laden has become the head of the Taliban. The Taliban attacked not only the US but all of western civilization with agents they paid for & trained. How is this NOT an act of war ?
The Taliban's attack on WTC was an attack against Zionist Jews, against the US & World financial systems & economies, against personal security, Hell it was just against Humanity as a whole. This measures up well against Adolf on his good day.
FUCK BIN LADEN & HIS CREW OF CAMELFUCKERS!!!!!!
 

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racing is war
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re:war

Running a plane into the world trade center = act of terrosrism

Running a plane into the pentagon = Act of war

RUnning planes into both on same day at nearly the same time = act of insanity (pact up your shit and leave the county they came form because it time to blow em up ;) )
 

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Member# 2310
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I see some valid points but he used the word incompetent wrong.

Definition:
Incompetent - not competent
Competent - capable

So what is he saying the government is not capable of doing?
 

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The Libertarians r a party that believes that smaller govt is better. I agree with that but I do not agree with 90% of what Browne says
 

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Saying that terrorism will be eradicated is not only unrealistic, it is asinine. What is realistic is the goal of reducing considerably the threat of terrorism against the U.S.
At first, I was in total support of blowing countries like Afghanistan to dust. However, Browne makes some good points. What are we really accomplishing in the big picture??

We really need to focus our attention on protecting ourselves on our own turf, eliminating terrorists that currently reside on our soil and preventing new ones from entering.
 

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UP THE IRONS!!!
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Discussion Starter #8
Countach...understood man. Redrocket...that is kind of what I thought too....I mean as much as I'd like to see that entire country burn and the temporary "feel good" I'd get from it....would it accomplish a goal. I think what I agreed with most is the fact that no harm would come out of asking Bin Laden and the Taliban..."What do you want from us?" or "What would it take for you to back off and leave us alone?" If all they want is for us to stay the hell out of the Middle East and their politics...I'm 100% for that. Of course as was brought up today at the gathering.....if they just hate us and want to continue fucking with us because they hate our way of life...period....then I say nuke the whole fucking shithouse...'cuz you can't negotiate that.
 

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I disagree with everything he said except that there is no perfection.

Here is the way I see it: Flying our planes into our buildings is the same as Using their own planes to bomb our buildings. If they had the capability of bombing us and they did bomb us, that would be an act of war. Just like Pearl Harbor only worse.

The Japanese bombed (and run their planes) into our military. On 9/11, the terrorists use OUR own shit to blow up CIVILIANS!!!!

Now the main question is: Who did this? I believe that our US government has enough information to link this to the Taliban. We, as the American public, may never see the proof but I have faith in Bush (I didn't vote for him) and believe he knows what he is doing and he is doing a good job.

Now, assuming that the Taliban did this, we need to bomb the hell out of Afganistan. Sure there are people there who are inocent, but it is their government that we are fighting. If they wanted another government bad enough, they would have another government. For those you you who do not agree with me on this, think back to the revolutionary war. The colonists were out gunned, out maned, out smarted etc... but they fought and they beat the British...Why? Because they had heart and wanted a change. If the Afgan people wanted a new government bad enough, they would have gotten it. If you want something bad enough, you will find a means to get it.

Any thoughts????
 

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Posted by Wrathchild:
I think what I agreed with most is the fact that no harm would come out of asking Bin Laden and the Taliban..."What do you want from us?" or "What would it take for you to back off and leave us alone?"
In my opinion, they've actually made it pretty clear what they want from us:

1.They want our military bases and political motives out of the Middle East.
2. They want us to stop supporting Israel in the Palestine-Israeli conflict.

I think its a major mistake that our government chooses sides when other countries are battling it out. Israel-Palistine being one example. Potentially, India-Pakistan is another (as they fight over Kashmir). We really need to be careful about who we support. Right now the US is trying to be friendly with Pakistan, but here is a country that has stored nuclear weapons and harbored terrorists for years. In the streets of Pakistan, people are signing up to join the holy war against America. What the hell are we doing supporting these backstabbing people?? If we choose their side, we lose India as an ally, a country with a potential anti-terrorist army of 1 billion people. If we continue to stick our ass in other countries' problems, we put ourselves at risk for nothing.

Again, lets look after ourselves and our own turf.
 

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I agree that Pakistan is not our friend. I think we may need them right now for information and for access to Afganistan.

However, what we see on TV is just a fraction of what really goes on. Like I said before, there is so much top secret stuff that the average joe will never know about (you and I), so we will never be able to form an educated opinion on what we "should" do as a country. We are to vote for the people who we believe will do the best job and let them take care of the rest (unless you are a lobbiest hehehe)

On 9/10 I was very anti-Bush, but he has won me over. I think he is doing a great job. BTW, I wasn't pro-gore either :)

As far as Isreal, there are a lot of reasons why it is a good thing (unfortunately I can't remember any of them right now) but I am for backing them.

Here is a little personal opinion of mine. I could be totally wrong. I don't think that the US accidently bombs hospital etc... I think that we do it on purpose just to fuck with the enemy.

Anyways....
 

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Whatever Man
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The only thing the Taliban has ever said that I somewhat agree with (somewhat being a stretch), is, "Where is the proof that bin Laden did this?" Although the FBI, and CIA believe that bin Laden did this, what proof do we have? I am not condemning the actions of my gov't by attacking Afghanistan in any way, shape, or form. However it is a question that needs answering. Just because people that have been known to hang out with bin Laden did this does not mean that he did it. For example, Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine before he killed Kennedy. That does not mean that the entire Marine Corps was gunning for Kennedy. Anyway, this is just my .02
 

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Lost Soul
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I agree with the Matt said, if they had wanted another government then they should have joined the Northern Forces and over threw the gov't. Bin Laden, pays for these training camps therefore that does make him responsible. In your way of saying, it would be like me being part of a crime ring masterminded by one person. Well if I do something of course it reflects back the big guy.

-Jeff
 

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Your world vs Their world

The Afghani people couldn't rise up and overthrow. You apparently don't understand their plight. They would first have to dismiss the idea that they're banishing themselves to eternal damnation by revolting against the holy leaders. Then they have to collect arms and fighters. They don't have Walmart for ammunition. They can't pay for much. And internal forces are brutal. I want you to consider what this means in their land. Anyone who has tried this (recently) has been killed. There are no easy revolts in the world gentlemen. Learn this and then marvel at the successful way the 13 colonies usurped England.

While I enjoy the discussion here, for educational value, there's something that hasn't been brought up yet: Protecting the borders of America is the ultimate goal of the military but the dual purpose of diplomacy (by Bush's own admissions) is to promote goodness. You can't promote goodness in a single corner alone. The phrase is "moral imperative" and I'm proud to say it has come back to our leadership's principles. I'll hand the soapbox over to someone else now.
 

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Running With Scissors
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I didn't read the article, sorry.

redrocket said:


1.They want our military bases and political motives out of the Middle East.
2. They want us to stop supporting Israel in the Palestine-Israeli conflict.
I disagree. They want our country to fall. They HATE the U.S. because we are the most powerfuil country in world, the freeest country, and the most open. The people supporting this regime against the United States are religous zealots and bigots. They are full of hate and jealousy. They see our country, allowing all sorts of freedoms; many of which are to the direct contrary of what they believe to be right, and hate us for it. They are angry that we do not follow the rules they see as correct.

The leaders of countries sympathetic to these terrorists want to contunue their oppressive rule of the people. They let terrorists live because the terrorists do not target them. The leaders are able to sway a largely illiterate populace to follow them out of fear and propaganda. They starve the people to keep them too weak to revolt, and force their twisted form of Islam on them so the people will support this grotesque cause. It is sure that they leave out passages from the Koran such as

"Surely the believers and the Jews,
Nazareans (Christians) and the Sabians, whoever believes
in God and the Last Day, and whosoever does right,
shall have his reward his Lord
and will neither have fear nor regret."

and instead throw a spin on it's text that a cannot be challenged without fear of death or inprisonment. I believe most of the people helping the terrorists, or enlisting to fight with them have nothing on this Earth, so they belive they can at least secure their place in Heaven. Yeah, it's true that we shouldn't stick our head in where it doesn't belong. I totally agree with that. But that argument cannot be made now. We've been attacked. Figuring out why we were attacked is good and all, but it will not stop this from happening again. We need to send a message ourselves that we will not tolerate violence like this, and then maybe we can get on with changing the way things are done. I don't believe this war is here to get rid of all terrorism. There will always be terrorism. I do believe this war is happening to send a message and greatly reduce the amount of terrorist actions that are able to be carried out.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...
 

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UP THE IRONS!!!
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Discussion Starter #16
Speeyuk, I am afraid that what you said is correct and in which case they really have no "demands" and therefore our military should do anything and everything within it's power to eliminate all terrorist cells...not just hunt down Laden. That means in this country too. I also believe it is worth a few "innocent peoples" lives to stop this insanity...yes even if that meant my own.
 

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I feel for the inocent people there. It is terrible what is going on, the treatment of women just makes me sick. I would like to go other there and personally kick their ass for that reason alone (even without 9/11). However, I still believe that if they wanted a new government, they would find a way to get one. It is human nature. It all boils down to this: People do what they want to do. It is not an American thing. Christianity (90% of americans) does not teach people to do what THEY want, but we all do it anyway. I bring that up just to show that Islam is not a good excuse as to why they do nothing about it. Again, I feel for them, but only to an extent.

If the people are being educated otherwise and choose to do nothing about it, then I consider them part of the probelm and must go down as well.

Next...
 

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Bin Laden & the Taliban may have many reasons, US backing Israel & the plight of the Palestinians, the Gulf War, US bases on Holy soil in Saudi, BL may want to overthrow the Saudi ROyals & take over.

But the #1 reason is that BL is Criminally Insane Psycho Mass Murderer

Basically the Taliban & BL hate EVERYONE who is not an ignorant poor Camelfucker like them. They hate Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, othe Muslims, Americans, Canadians, Mexicans, Europeans, Asians, SOuth Americans, Africans, Everybody
 

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Like it or not the US IS now an Empire. We cannot shut our borders we have gone too far to become isolationist now & International air travel & our economy wont permit that fantasy.

I agree with figuring out how we can stop being attacked in the future. I am all for giving the Palestinans a homeland. Working on alternate Energy SOurces like Fusion or SOlar to make us less dependant on the Saudis & basically not messing with other countries if they dont mess with us

But back to my main point on the Taliban & BL. I believe BL & his commanders r Insanse, u cannot reason with people like that, They will hate u no matter what u do, they have to b exterminated. Afterwards we can do the stuff I mentioned in the last paragraph
 

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Lost Soul
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If they wanted to rebel they could. All they would have to do is join the Northern Opposition. Plus these people have the money to tie bombs to them selves and run into a public place then they could just as easily run into their gov't establishments.
If these people had wanted a different gov't it wouldn't have been that hard for them. Hell, the US would of probably give them arms and everything else.

-Jeff
 
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