Mitsubishi 3000GT & Dodge Stealth Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Aussie Bloke
Joined
·
929 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Going back to the track on 24th and contemplating pulling the fuse for the ABS..
Any advice would be appreciated as to whether this is a good idea or not, and why..

Stock AWD AWS TT GTO.

Ps. It will probably be approx 100 degrees F on the day..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
573 Posts
I personally don't like abs on our cars, I think the system is inadequate. I have done some autocross events without it and even some track racing at the last NG without. If you know the limits of your brakes I don't think you need it or will want it. But just like the AWS system when it comes to perfomrnance driving its a matter of personal preference.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,414 Posts
I'd leave it at first at least. Just try it for your self and see what you think. On dry pavement if should do just fine.
 

·
Aussie Bloke
Joined
·
929 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I've been leaving it on in the past, but I'm thinking that without it I'll get more bias towards the front which will let me get the back around better.. Also according to the manual the ABS doesn't deactivate until speed reduces below 8mph and I think it may be staying on a little too long after I brake into the corner, as I'm cornering at a higher speed than that..
The car seemed sluggish out of the 180 degree corner at the end of the course, and we experienced brake fluid boiling (have since upgraded brake fluid to DBR600). I don't know if ABS could have contributed to both/either of these issues..
I suppose as DG says in the secrets of Autocross, I'll try it and see..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,272 Posts
I'd leave it on.

Here's an excellent explanation :
DGs Autocross Secrets aka Autocross to Win
I don't buy it. In the wet and on dry street traffic John Q public will benifit from ABS and that is what it is for. All thay have to do is stand on the brakes as most drivers would do in a panic. The car helps keep them safe and in control.
But when racing, We need to be in complete control of all of the cars functions and if you are not getting the feed back, from the road dirrectly, as with ABS, you will never learn the limitations of your car. Your feed back is lost through ABS. You should not need a car to correct your braking for you.
Throttling, braking, turning, sliding, stopping, and even tire temps are all events that that bring information to the brain and we use this info to better our driving skills. To distort this information will do nothing for you. Your ABS can not see the road ahead. It does not know that you are setting up for a turn and for sure has no idea what your next move is. For me, ABS has no place in performance driving.
 

·
Aussie Bloke
Joined
·
929 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Was back at the track on the 24th Dec, and I only had abs kicking very briefly on 1 corner, the rest of it I was braking correctly.. The ABS seems pretty good on hot bitumen.. ie. it only came on when I locked up.. I'm planning on stickier tyres soon, so we'll see what happens after that..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,272 Posts
I may have spoke too soon. I have not autocrossed AWD so the ABS may in fact be a plus with an AWD application and give you a quiker time. My worry though is if you in fact ever needed to lock all four corners for the purpose of a safe slide, as in road racing, The ABS would not let that happen, possibly pulling you back on to the track and in harms way. But because you are most times alone in autocross and the overall track speed are much less then road course, you might just be far better off with the ABS. I also think the ABS causes higher brake rotor temps, but again speeds being slower, I'm sure you are just fine. An other issue might be the all wheel drive system itself on the VR4s Viscous coupled drives could in fact over heat if your tires are infact have a major differance in rotational speeds. I now seem to think ABS is the way to go with the VR4. Post some vids of your car in action.
 

·
The Student
Joined
·
1,214 Posts
Ive never ever had ABS on my current car....and i like it that way. I dont like the ABS system on the 3S.

Surprisingly, i decided to pull it on my old car after hitting a bumpy patch on a corner and had it activate. I really didnt like that feeling.

In addition, i can outbrake my ABS system...and ive never flat-spotted a tire. I just dont see a reason to have it.

(I have a front Big Brakes Kit as well)
 

·
Street Modified Godfather
Joined
·
157 Posts
in fact ever needed to lock all four corners for the purpose of a safe slide, as in road racing
You're doing it wrong.

ive never flat-spotted a tire
Race tires are significantly softer than street tires and will flatspot the instant the tire locks.

DG
 

·
Aussie Bloke
Joined
·
929 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
our 1991 abs system is horrible
Why ?
Have you upgraded the brakes ?

I'm back at the track this weekend, and will be leaving the ABS on again, I now have stickier tyres (tires) so we shall see how it performs..

remember I'm only braking from around 130kph (80mph)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,745 Posts
It has a slow deactivation time, and a very slow pulse rate. Plus, if one wheel locks up, it takes out the diagonal wheel with it. So, if you lock up both fronts or rears, the ABS system kicks in on all 4 and kills your braking performance. I'd leave it enabled in the dry, you can easily threshold brake better than it, especially with sticky tires.
 

·
Aussie Bloke
Joined
·
929 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
It has a slow deactivation time, and a very slow pulse rate. Plus, if one wheel locks up, it takes out the diagonal wheel with it. So, if you lock up both fronts or rears, the ABS system kicks in on all 4 and kills your braking performance. I'd leave it enabled in the dry, you can easily threshold brake better than it, especially with sticky tires.
Thankyou, thankyou, This is exactly the info I was after.. I suspected as much but couldn't find the facts..
 

·
Smooth and Fast
Joined
·
1,535 Posts
It has a slow deactivation time, and a very slow pulse rate. Plus, if one wheel locks up, it takes out the diagonal wheel with it. So, if you lock up both fronts or rears, the ABS system kicks in on all 4 and kills your braking performance. I'd leave it enabled in the dry, you can easily threshold brake better than it, especially with sticky tires.
Hmmmm. At that point though you've already exceeded the limits of the tires and either have the abs on or your're sliding and now flatspotting a tire.(hopefully still going straight) The abs won't engage until it sees lockup from a tire.

DG info is good info, he's by no means guessing, he speaks from experience as do I. I race with abs on because threshold braking at 140mph could be devastating if a lockup occurs. Not to mention if I lockup a tire on the slicks on turn 1 of lap 1, my race is over. (thumpy-thumpy-thumpy till I get back to the pits)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,745 Posts
Just remember, if you lock up the brakes with the ABS enabled, you'll be able to steer, but not stop. ;)

Hmmmm. At that point though you've already exceeded the limits of the tires and either have the abs on or your're sliding and now flatspotting a tire.(hopefully still going straight) The abs won't engage until it sees lockup from a tire.

DG info is good info, he's by no means guessing, he speaks from experience as do I. I race with abs on because threshold braking at 140mph could be devastating if a lockup occurs. Not to mention if I lockup a tire on the slicks on turn 1 of lap 1, my race is over. (thumpy-thumpy-thumpy till I get back to the pits)
You listed the exact reason I recommended keeping it enabled. There's no reason to risk locking a tire if you misjudge the threshold. I'd rather have it as a backup, at least in the dry. In the rain/snow (you're not generally racing in snow, but rain is a possibility) though, our system is so slow I'm not sure I'd trust it. Does anyone have experience pushing the car to the limits in the rain with ABS enabled vs. disabled? I know I don't, so I'm not qualified to make that statement.
 

·
The Student
Joined
·
1,214 Posts
I mean I have exceeded the limits of my tires before but as soon as you hit that limit you back off and progressively brake. I mean, ive never flat spotted a tire but I also havnt just stood on my brake pedal and hoped for the best.

I have no chance of reinstalling my system.....but I am worried I may one day want it back. Just right now, I dont have it and dont miss it.
 

·
Smooth and Fast
Joined
·
1,535 Posts
Just remember, if you lock up the brakes with the ABS enabled, you'll be able to steer, but not stop. ;)



You listed the exact reason I recommended keeping it enabled. There's no reason to risk locking a tire if you misjudge the threshold. I'd rather have it as a backup, at least in the dry. In the rain/snow (you're not generally racing in snow, but rain is a possibility) though, our system is so slow I'm not sure I'd trust it. Does anyone have experience pushing the car to the limits in the rain with ABS enabled vs. disabled? I know I don't, so I'm not qualified to make that statement.
Ah, now I'm with ya.

Pushing the car to the limits in the rain is a sketchy affair no matter which way you slice it. :) On dry, I run the R888 (3/32nds shave), on wet I run the HTRZ2 at full tread depth. I've had a few moments of 'uh oh' in the wet and the abs I still prefer to be on. When the abs kicks in, like you said, you can still steer. Us road racer types like to go off track straight and not sideways so we don't flip so I believe it to be an advantage. The opposite would be a full lockup, followed by hydroplaning into the back of the car in front of me. I'd rather go to the dirt. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,745 Posts
Ah, now I'm with ya.

Pushing the car to the limits in the rain is a sketchy affair no matter which way you slice it. :) On dry, I run the R888 (3/32nds shave), on wet I run the HTRZ2 at full tread depth. I've had a few moments of 'uh oh' in the wet and the abs I still prefer to be on. When the abs kicks in, like you said, you can still steer. Us road racer types like to go off track straight and not sideways so we don't flip so I believe it to be an advantage. The opposite would be a full lockup, followed by hydroplaning into the back of the car in front of me. I'd rather go to the dirt. :D
How do you feel our ABS works in the rain? In the snow it's next to useless, it never stops pulsing, even if you have grip again... I guess that's what I get for using * Specs in the snow :muahaha:
 

·
Captain Slow
Joined
·
1,117 Posts
Erron-what kind of road racing do you do? I was surprised, but there are a lot of NASA classes that don't allow abs.

I'm removing mine as we speak. I do pretty minimal road coursing, but autocross a lot. I've driven with mine off for several seasons and prefer it, other then in the wet. As was said above, the pulse rate is so slow that I honestly think I can outbreak it. More modern systems are another story. I was in an RSX at a driving school and could stop 5-10 feet shorter from 60 with the abs on. I'm more going for dropping weight and cleaning up my engine bay though.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top