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resident evil
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It has what A/R turbine side? Doesn't Matt custom order his hot sides? I find Matt isn't usually conservative with his hot side unless a customer wants it that way. Anyway, with him using stock timing maps even if they are the low maps, it still makes his timing pretty aggressive when he is making big power numbers. I am running 18 degrees at WOT with my little DR650s and its close to knocking on pump at 17psi.

Chris, since your here. My car will not start when its cold and I changed the one parameter in AEM file to -32 F from 32 F and I thought that would do it but as soon as the temp gets around 32 F, I get no fuel. What other output parameters govern fuel pump operation? F10 and what else? Its a 1995 VR4

Thanks much appreciated
 

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3s-less
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1,507 Posts
It's far from "completed"

-Chris
I doubt that the drop in tq is in your tune. I see many 3/s cars with this inability to keep the hp curve going past tq, hp seems to always be closely alinged with tq and at an early rpm level relative to many other engine setups. this really limits our top end power and i am just trying to understand why. i do not think this platform has a well designed intake plenum backed up by dyno numbers. Not that i think that is all, for this big engine if the customer opted for a smaller a/r and his exhaust is restrictive it could be largley due to that on this car but like i said i see many 3/s cars with hp closely tied to tq, my car included, i actually make more tq thant hp BUT i have small turbos not 5027s
 

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resident evil
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I have stage III DR heads/ Stillen Borla, AEM and the car doesnt drop power at all at the top end with stock cams. It runs out of turbo and flattens at my hp peak but stays within 10hp to 7500 rpm. The only sig drop-off is turbo size in my case. I make alot less power then this car, but its worth to note that not all these cars drop off like that. However, my turbos clipped....so that dropoff can only really be a hotside issue if everything else (tune,iat,engine timing etc ) is spot on. Thats assuming the timing advance was not just left some flat value above a certain rpm (even if it was, you might see a 40hp difference, but not cause a drop like that).
 

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Ninja Performance
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42,337 Posts
Discussion Starter #64
It has what A/R turbine side? Doesn't Matt custom order his hot sides? I find Matt isn't usually conservative with his hot side unless a customer wants it that way. Anyway, with him using stock timing maps even if they are the low maps, it still makes his timing pretty aggressive when he is making big power numbers. I am running 18 degrees at WOT with my little DR650s and its close to knocking on pump at 17psi.

Chris, since your here. My car will not start when its cold and I changed the one parameter in AEM file to -32 F from 32 F and I thought that would do it but as soon as the temp gets around 32 F, I get no fuel. What other output parameters govern fuel pump operation? F10 and what else? Its a 1995 VR4

Thanks much appreciated
27 hotside .48 AR (versus larger .63 available)

It's identical to the 5027s I have on my DD (according to a turbo shop and my measurements) except I am using the PTE TD05 hotside but still a 27 wheel in a .48 AR.

that should do it for your settings. What are all the options on your Fuel10? Coolant temp? Make sure it is set to At Least and if you are going to star the car in under 32F then set it for
Coolant Temp AT LEAST 20F (lower if you will start it in temps colder than 20F)

-Chris
 

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Ninja Performance
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42,337 Posts
Discussion Starter #65
I doubt that the drop in tq is in your tune. I see many 3/s cars with this inability to keep the hp curve going past tq, hp seems to always be closely alinged with tq and at an early rpm level relative to many other engine setups. this really limits our top end power and i am just trying to understand why. i do not think this platform has a well designed intake plenum backed up by dyno numbers. Not that i think that is all, for this big engine if the customer opted for a smaller a/r and his exhaust is restrictive it could be largley due to that on this car but like i said i see many 3/s cars with hp closely tied to tq, my car included, i actually make more tq thant hp BUT i have small turbos not 5027s
HP will always follow TQ as an internal combustion engine does not make HP. It only makes TQ. HP is a figure of Work over time (TQ at XXXXRPM, TQ X RPM / 5252).

Therefore HP will always rise with TQ and drop with TQ. HP doesn't exist. Tq does and HP is just TQ over time.

-Chris
 

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25 Spline Snapper
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I wanted to get unbiased feedback so I intentionally left out the exact turbo kit unitl I got some feedback. While I stated they are 5027s, and that is what our turbo shop says they are or damn identical to, they are DR1000s. Comp and Turbine wheels design and all measurements are identical to 5027's. If there are any differences I nor my turbo rebuilder can tell so the difference in performance should be negligible.

-Chris
 

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resident evil
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27 hotside .48 AR (versus larger .63 available)

It's identical to the 5027s I have on my DD (according to a turbo shop and my measurements) except I am using the PTE TD05 hotside but still a 27 wheel in a .48 AR.

that should do it for your settings. What are all the options on your Fuel10? Coolant temp? Make sure it is set to At Least and if you are going to star the car in under 32F then set it for
Coolant Temp AT LEAST 20F (lower if you will start it in temps colder than 20F)

-Chris
you da man Chris!!

I didn't even look at the setting for the other parts but it was set to 'less then' in the speed parameter with speed set to 0. I am using a touch screen tablet and sometimes you touch the screen with your sleeve and change another parameter by accident. What I dont understand is when I changed this and why the car drove fine the day before it snowed. Its def temperature related because it started 100% fine until the temp dropped and I had one day that was warm and it started right up, but I decided I wanted to fix it today so I was messing with it looking for other temp parameters
 

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3s-less
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1,507 Posts
HP will always follow TQ as an internal combustion engine does not make HP. It only makes TQ. HP is a figure of Work over time (TQ at XXXXRPM, TQ X RPM / 5252).

Therefore HP will always rise with TQ and drop with TQ. HP doesn't exist. Tq does and HP is just TQ over time.

-Chris
i know those basics chris, so then the answer is as simple as our tq peaks much sooner than other platforms. take this 4g63 im looking at in turbo mag for ex, built by ams it made just 647 peak tq but way out at 8200 rpm which created a massive 1035 hp. so for the majority of 6g72 numbers ive see (many different setups, turbos, heads, cams, intakes, you name it) the tq is very high but at an early rpm; why? Matts dr stage III heads, cams, large a/r hot side, big intake pipes, shorter although same diameter intake runners with larger surge tank, has the same issue. loads of tq but it does not carry into the higher rpms
 

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Ninja Performance
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42,337 Posts
Discussion Starter #69
Wow :muahaha:

If they are different then I stand corrected, but I want to know exactly what makes them different, not "they are NOT the same"

So if someone thinks or knows they are actually not the same turbo, post the comp and turbine wheels specs.

-Chris
 

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Here is a Dyno chart for a 3.0L with Dynamic Racing heads/cams/intake with those same turbos (but these are not DBB like Jarret Norman's on your 3.5L are), DR-1000's with stage 2, .48 Exhaust side.





As you can see it only looses about 30 whp from it's peek till ~7800 when thy let off.


Glad to see you got his car going Chris, Jarret sounds like a really nice guy that guy dicked over by the last shop that had his car. Tell him hello for me when you see him next.


On a 3.5L I would really rather see somebody go with .63, stage 3 Exhaust side, but this customer wanted something that would spool as fast as possible.

I have been thinking of doing a 3.5L for my street car, and if I did .63, stage 3, DR-1200's is what I would run, after seeing how fast thy spooled, and what kind of power/performance thy had on my race car.

PS just because a wheel measures the same does not mean it is the same. for instance there are quite a few wheels that measure the same as the wheels I use in my DR-1200's but are not the same (a few of them I even tried using and thy did not preform the same). But I do find it funny the Extents you go to try and Copy my work, it's easier to follow then lead. It realy cracked me up after you got this DR-1000 turbo kit in your hands you right away sent a turbo off to your turbo builder and have him make you what he thought would be the exact same thing but with a TD-05 Exhaust side to put on your car. I should be flattered.
 

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Ninja Performance
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Discussion Starter #71
Here is a Dyno chart for a 3.0L with Dynamic Racing heads/cams/intake with those same turbos (but these are not DBB like Jarret Norman's on your 3.5L are), DR-1000's with stage 2, .48 Exhaust side.





As you can see it only looses about 30 whp from it's peek till ~7800 when thy let off.


Glad to see you got his car going Chris, Jarret sounds like a really nice guy that guy dicked over by the last shop that had his car. Tell him hello for me when you see him next.


On a 3.5L I would really rather see somebody go with .63, stage 3 Exhaust side, but this customer wanted something that would spool as fast as possible.

I have been thinking of doing a 3.5L for my street car, and if I did .63, stage 3, DR-1200's is what I would run, after seeing how fast thy spooled, and what kind of power/performance thy had on my race car.

PS just because a wheel measures the same does not mean it is the same. for instance there are quite a few wheels that measure the same as the wheels I use in my DR-1200's but are not the same (a few of them I even tried using and thy did not preform the same)
Good info. So how close are DR1000 to a 5027 setup? Wheel design and measurements I have show they are either identical or not different enough to matter but I could be wrong.

While the heads are 3SX, they started AAM beaver chewed, our head guy freshened them up the best he could to save the customer money. So they aren't exactly our heads but better than what he came with.

Odd our run shows more TQ than HP and your is opposite.

Our 3.5
Torco116
28psi peak
Running conservative timing

726AWHP uncorrected
715AWTQ uncorrected

Your 3.0
650AWTQ
812AWHP

Not sure what PSI or fuel yours was running.

You showed +86AWHP but ours showed +65AWTQ

By 7800 ours is down considerably, I am thinking the conservative upper RPM timing may be doing that. I don't have more than 1 degree more at 8K than I have at around 6500. Playing it safe up top until I got a few more runs in. I can throw more timing up top for sure. She was dead silent, even well below the knock cal map.

Guess I should have waited a bit to post a "final" run. I get excited, as most know, and post before I should.

And yes, Jarret is a really nice guy whom was dicked over hard by the last shop that had his car for years. Selling him BB turbos when they were journal, oversized valve ported heads that end up stock size, giving him a non running spun bearing car as "completed" and the list goes on.

-Chris
 

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Ninja Performance
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Discussion Starter #72
Another intersting note,

Our 3.5 DRBB1000 crosses 600AWTQ at 4500 and 600AWHP at 4700
Your 3.0 DR1000 crosses 600AWTQ at 5800 and 600AWHP at 5700

You think that is the .5L and BB causing that? Lag?

Could the .48AR be too small for the 3.5?

-Chris
 

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i know those basics chris, so then the answer is as simple as our tq peaks much sooner than other platforms. take this 4g63 im looking at in turbo mag for ex, built by ams it made just 647 peak tq but way out at 8200 rpm which created a massive 1035 hp. so for the majority of 6g72 numbers ive see (many different setups, turbos, heads, cams, intakes, you name it) the tq is very high but at an early rpm; why? Matts dr stage III heads, cams, large a/r hot side, big intake pipes, shorter although same diameter intake runners with larger surge tank, has the same issue. loads of tq but it does not carry into the higher rpms

Realy big cams, ever see What Ray's car with the 3.0L use to dyno with my "Race Cams" that are 292's? his car made max power at ~9000rpm. The problem is you loose lo-end, There is no dout in my mind my car would make way more HP then the 1093 it made with larger cams and reving it to 10,000rpm BUT

#1 oil pump gears,
#2 oil pump gears,
#3 these trany's dont shift worth a dam much past 8000rpm,
#4 I have never had the needed fuel and stand alone to make enuf power up top to over compensate for the loss in lo end the larger cams (and turbos) would give.

My goal was to always make the best use of the power I could suport, make it as fast as posible and hold it. It worked How menny 8.8 second imports you see with ONLY 955hp?
 

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Odd our run shows more TQ than HP and your is opposite.
You think that's Odd? the motor is nearly 20% larger, that's Exactly what I would expect. (3.0L VS 3.5L)


What I did not Expect to see was suck a huge ~200hp drop in power from peek to red line on your motor.


Now if you want to compare 3.5L to 3.5L we can go back to my race motor that was making over 200 more HP and TQ then yours was at about the same boost. It does have biger turbos, but it even made TQ allot faster then yours.
 

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Ninja Performance
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42,337 Posts
Discussion Starter #76
You think that's Odd? the motor is nearly 20% larger, that's Exactly what I would expect.


What I did not Expect to see was suck a huge ~200hp drop in power from peek to red line on your motor.


Now if you want to compare 3.5L to 3.5L we can go back to my race motor that was making over 200 more HP and TQ then yours was at about the same boost. It does have biger turbos, but it even made TQ allot faster then yours.
True, but I think your 3.54 gets it's size more from stroke, where the 3.5 Pejero has a larger bore? Or did you go to 93mm? I thought you stayed to 92?. if you are 92mm then your stroke on the 3.54 is more than the stroke on a 3.5 Pejero? If I am talking out of my ass just say so LOL

It may not even be a difference worth noting though. They are probably both real close?

-Chris
 

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Ninja Performance
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Discussion Starter #77
aaaa YA

And my 3.5L crossed 800 ft/lb at 4500rpm
Yeah, that's bloody crazy. We wont' be doing anymore 3.5 pejero setups. Between the oil pan, and other small things to change and larger bore (head gasket failures) we will be sticking with Ray's strokers.

-Chris
 

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By 7800 ours is down considerably, I am thinking the conservative upper RPM timing may be doing that. I don't have more than 1 degree more at 8K than I have at around 6500. Playing it safe up top until I got a few more runs in. I can throw more timing up top for sure. She was dead silent, even well below the knock cal map.

That very well could be, I don't know what Timing Lynol's car was running you would have to ask him or Ray. He is running a AEM thow.

My car as of when those #'s were from that Dyno that was posted was running No timing control with a ARC-2 on the stock ECU, Lator when the car made 1093 it had a Apexi ITC on it, and GAINED power from pulling out some timing up top.


Also I did not get into this thread to argue with you, or tell you you are doing something wrong with the car. I'm far away and have never even seen the car. If there is something wrong up top I hope you get it figured out, but eather way that looks like that car would be a hoot to drive! I only posted at all because you brought up my turbos.
 

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True, but I think your 3.54 gets it's size more from stroke, where the 3.5 Pejero has a larger bore? Or did you go to 93mm? I thought you stayed to 92?. if you are 92mm then your stroke on the 3.54 is more than the stroke on a 3.5 Pejero? If I am talking out of my ass just say so LOL

It may not even be a difference worth noting though. They are probably both real close?

-Chris
My stroke is 3.5" the Pejero I think is 3.31" (would need to look it up), my bore is 92mm, Pejero is 93mm
 
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