GM Synchromesh : Long term effect on tranny

jeff97vr4 · Jun 30, 2005

l33t said:
just out of curiousity, since blackstone is saying that the 10w30 is too thin for a tranny, would a switch to the 15w50 be any better

If I go back to Mobil 1, I will use a 50:50 mix of 10W/30 and 15W/50 for the higher viscosity.

Jeff

cbatters · Jun 30, 2005

Re: Redline Shockproof Lightweight Oil Analysis

Great data / post.

Didn't realize the "recipe" for Redline was so complicated (based on the number of trace elements in the virgin sample)

Looks like the Redline LW was OK but not remarkably better than Mobile1 10W30.

I should ahve 5K data back tomorrow on Penzoil SM for comparison.

200 MILES ON SYNTORQ
Initial feedback is that it shifts about the same as the tranny fluid I took out that had 120K miles on it. Not bad but synchro performance is not nearly as good as Pennzoil SM.

To me a good transmission is like a good computer mouse. If you notice it there is a problem. With SM, I stopped thinking about shifting/downshifting - it was effortless.

With Syntorq, I find myself thinking about pressure on the gear shift lever to avoid a mis-shift. It is also difficult to downshift into 1st at 25 MPH, something that is easy to do with SM. (Downshift into 1st is a pretty objective test of good synchro performnace.)

Current plan is to run Syntorq to ~1000 miles before making any changes. If it is the same at 1000 miles I will try adding some of the special Mitsu friction modifier and see if it improves synchro performance.

If it doesn't improve I will probably run it out to at least 3000 miles to get reasonable wear numbers but will be looking for a different fill.

Clint

jeff97vr4 · Jun 30, 2005

Re: Redline Shockproof Lightweight Oil Analysis

cbatters said:
200 MILES ON SYNTORQ
Initial feedback is that it shifts about the same as the tranny fluid I took out that had 120K miles on it. Not bad but synchro performance is not nearly as good as Pennzoil SM.

To me a good transmission is like a good computer mouse. If you notice it there is a problem. With SM, I stopped thinking about shifting/downshifting - it was effortless.

With Syntorq, I find myself thinking about pressure on the gear shift lever to avoid a mis-shift. It is also difficult to downshift into 1st at 25 MPH, something that is easy to do with SM. (Downshift into 1st is a pretty objective test of good synchro performnace.)

Clint

Interesting comments about the quality of shifting. The only difference I noticed between Pennzoil SM, Mobil 1 10W/30, and Redline LW was a bit stiffer feel or resistance in the first 1/2 mile or so. After that short period, they all worked as expected, like you said, unobtrusively.

One noticeable difference in the oil analysis for the Mobil 1 was the viscosity. When used in the engine, the 10W/30 viscostiy has been beteen 59-60. For trans use, 57.8 for the 2350 sample, and 55.7 for the 3100 mile sample. The reduced viscosity suggests there is high shear in the trans that may be reducing the viscosity during use. There appears to be a large reduction in viscosity with the Redline LW, virgin - 191 to 154 at 1830 miles.

Clint, based on your description of the shifting quality with the Syntorq, I think I will stick with Mobil 1. I will use a mix of 10W/30 and 15W/50 to increase the viscosity. I'll report on the shifting quality with the "thicker" mix.

Jeff

cbatters · Jun 30, 2005

Re: Redline Shockproof Lightweight Oil Analysis

jeff97vr4 said:
Interesting comments about the quality of shifting. The only difference I noticed between Pennzoil SM, Mobil 1 10W/30, and Redline LW was a bit stiffer feel or resistance in the first 1/2 mile or so. After that short period, they all worked as expected, like you said, unobtrusively.

One noticeable difference in the oil analysis for the Mobil 1 was the viscosity. When used in the engine, the 10W/30 viscostiy has been beteen 59-60. For trans use, 57.8 for the 2350 sample, and 55.7 for the 3100 mile sample. The reduced viscosity suggests there is high shear in the trans that may be reducing the viscosity during use. There appears to be a large reduction in viscosity with the Redline LW, virgin - 191 to 154 at 1830 miles.

Clint, based on your description of the shifting quality with the Syntorq, I think I will stick with Mobil 1. I will use a mix of 10W/30 and 15W/50 to increase the viscosity. I'll report on the shifting quality with the "thicker" mix.

Jeff

Two thoughts:

1. I didn't connecrt the dots to realize that the reduction in viscocity that I noticed with SM is also happening with RL, Mobile1

2. Not ready to bash nor recommend the Syntorq so I think your idea about the Mobile1 mix sounds good.

Clint

leet · Jun 30, 2005

quick thought on the 15w50 mix, since mobil doesn't sell normal 15w50 anymore does their high mileage oil have anything extra in it that might be bad for the tranny

jeff97vr4 · Jun 30, 2005

l33t said:
quick thought on the 15w50 mix, since mobil doesn't sell normal 15w50 anymore does their high mileage oil have anything extra in it that might be bad for the tranny

From reviewing virgin oil analysis, the EP Mobil 1 oils seem to mainly have higher levels of detergents. I'm not concerned about the difference.

cbatters said:
2. Not ready to bash nor recommend the Syntorq so I think your idea about the Mobile1 mix sounds good.

I didn't take you comments as bashing, there just didn't seem to be any big advantage with Syntorq. I'm still interested in following the long term review.

I also had a thought on some folks reporting that the shifting got easier after driving for relatively long times. This never made much sense because of the materials in a trans and the way they are lubricated. However, if there is a reduction in viscosity from shear or whatever is causing it, the trans may actually shift easier. No proof but just a thought.

Jeff

cbatters · Jul 5, 2005

If you are currently running Penzoil Synchromesh, you may want to sit down before you open the attached report with wear numbers from ~5000 miles on SM. (Note that I had less wear on many trace elements with 100K on earlier fill...

Clint

bluemax_1 · Jul 5, 2005

Looks like I'll stay away from SM then. I guess I'll stick with the Redline mix for now. Unless some good results come in with regards to Mobil 1.

DanF · Jul 5, 2005

cbatters said:
If you are currently running Penzoil Synchromesh, you may want to sit down before you open the attached report with wear numbers from ~5000 miles on SM. (Note that I had less wear on many trace elements with 100K on earlier fill...

Clint

You might want to start a new thread with this info.

cbatters · Jul 5, 2005

bluemax_1 said:
Looks like I'll stay away from SM then. I guess I'll stick with the Redline mix for now. Unless some good results come in with regards to Mobil 1.

The "final nail in the SM coffin" will be my wear numbers after 4000-5000 using SYntorq. If the Syntorq wear numbers are normal, I believe we can conclude that SM is not providing adequate protection.

Clint

Hannibalzero · Jul 5, 2005

DanF said:
You might want to start a new thread with this info.

Or edit the first post to include this chart.

cbatters · Jul 5, 2005

Need to reconcile the difference between my expereince with SM and twospoonsfuls at about the same mileage.

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=233862&page=25&pp=10

His report shows very low wear..

Clint

mikes2nd · Jul 5, 2005

yeah somethings not right.

What kind of shape is your tranny in?

Bruce · Jul 5, 2005

cbatters said:
If you are currently running Penzoil Synchromesh, you may want to sit down before you open the attached report with wear numbers from ~5000 miles on SM. (Note that I had less wear on many trace elements with 100K on earlier fill...

Clint

Before anyone gets in a great big panic, let me try and find a way to post my report. I have 70k on the tranny and about 6500 on the SM. Iron: 98/98, Copper: 12/12, Silicon: 32/32. If anyone wants any numbers before I can post the report, let me know. I plan to pull another report after NG05, which I will be driving to and from.

Bruce

LUSTFUL · Jul 6, 2005

alright I know the nail in the coffin hasn't been put in yet(until the syntorq gets sampled), but still that shows alot of wear from what I have seen reported. so no conclusive word yet, but it looks like it is not so good then for the tranny then eh?
How about the redline, I didn't compare them, but it seems alot of people like it, and have good shifting results with it, but are the wear numbers similar, worse or better than synchromesh or mobil one? i haven't really read that yet in this thread, and I would like to hear one way or the other how they all stack up against each other shifting wise versus wear results.
Has anyone done any tests on lucas synthetic gear oil? I know I put in like a quart and a half of synchromesh, about two ounces of limited slip lube, and then filled it up with lucas 75-90w synthetic. shifts very very well, I would say almost as good if not better than straight SM, and I talked with the lead chem guy at lucas, and he was very very helpful. He claimed it would have no problem mixing together, nor have any adverse affects on the yellow metals on the synchros. We went over this many many times, and he talked me through the additive compilation in the lucas and assured me that I should be very happy with this mix. He didn't have anything negative to say about the SM at all which surprised a bit to say the least and was very upbeat about the whole ordeal.
so has anyone tested lucas yet, and how does SM wear results stack up against redline and mobil?

LUSTFUL · Jul 6, 2005

and clint do you think your results being high might be attributed to the mileage on your tranny? I mean I know you probably are good to it and all, but lets face it, the tranny has 170k on it right? Alot of wear in my opinion. could that be attributing to the high wear vaules?

mikes2nd · Jul 6, 2005

yeah thats what im thinking, the high milage tranny is whats responsible.

Ive only got 300 miles on my SM with a tranny that has 120k on it and grinding 3rd every once in a while. I can only imagine the metal in my SM.

cbatters · Jul 6, 2005

mikes2nd said:
yeah somethings not right.

What kind of shape is your tranny in?

Shifts / downshifts like a dream... only issue with factory fill / Syntorq is that it's tough to down-shift into 1st above ~20 MPH. (MUCH easier to downshift into 1st when running SM)

Clint

cbatters · Jul 6, 2005

LUSTFUL said:
and clint do you think your results being high might be attributed to the mileage on your tranny? I mean I know you probably are good to it and all, but lets face it, the tranny has 170k on it right? Alot of wear in my opinion. could that be attributing to the high wear vaules?

As per earlier post... I'll post numbers after running Syntorq for 4000-5000 miles and see if the wear is more normal.

Clint

cbatters · Jul 6, 2005

LUSTFUL said:
alright I know the nail in the coffin hasn't been put in yet(until the syntorq gets sampled), but still that shows alot of wear from what I have seen reported. so no conclusive word yet, but it looks like it is not so good then for the tranny then eh?
How about the redline, I didn't compare them, but it seems alot of people like it, and have good shifting results with it, but are the wear numbers similar, worse or better than synchromesh or mobil one? i haven't really read that yet in this thread, and I would like to hear one way or the other how they all stack up against each other shifting wise versus wear results.
Has anyone done any tests on lucas synthetic gear oil? I know I put in like a quart and a half of synchromesh, about two ounces of limited slip lube, and then filled it up with lucas 75-90w synthetic. shifts very very well, I would say almost as good if not better than straight SM, and I talked with the lead chem guy at lucas, and he was very very helpful. He claimed it would have no problem mixing together, nor have any adverse affects on the yellow metals on the synchros. We went over this many many times, and he talked me through the additive compilation in the lucas and assured me that I should be very happy with this mix. He didn't have anything negative to say about the SM at all which surprised a bit to say the least and was very upbeat about the whole ordeal.
so has anyone tested lucas yet, and how does SM wear results stack up against redline and mobil?

Couple pages back has darta for RL and Mobile1.

If wear numbers are much lower with Syntorq, it may point in the direction of a "blended mixture" to have the best shifting with acceptible wear.

Clint

GM Synchromesh : Long term effect on tranny

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