noise in Park has me stumped! - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center

StealthR/T 93 · 10-07-2006, 11:43 AM

This really has me stumped..

Since last winter (the first winter I had owned the car), the transmission made a VERY loud clanking in Park, ONLY below 60 degrees ambient. The best way I can describe the sound is take a bolt, put it in a closed coffee can, and shake like crazy. It is rhythmic too, almost as if in sync with the engine. It is ONLY present in Park though. However, in any of the forward gears, there is a pretty loud buzzing sound which I have associated to a possible bad solenoid. Driveability hasn't been affected at all, and the clank isn't present on a warm day (above 60 degrees), but the buzz does not go away in any of the forward gears.

Anyone have any ideas? I know there are some very intelligent ATX guys in here. I was planning on a pretty big ATX project for this car, but if this issue is pretty extensive, I may just ditch the ATX platform and convert to MTX

. Help me out!

EDIT: Here's a sound clip of the buzzing in any forward gear...

http://media.putfile.com/tranny-audio-clip

Hannibalzero · 10-10-2006, 06:35 AM

That sounds almost like something hitting a fan blade???

Actually, also kind of sounds like a spark arcing off of the coil and onto the block.

Its very odd that this would occur only at colder temperatures. If it weren't for that, I would have said it were a Torque Converter bolt that had come loose. But it is also rythmic. Very odd.

Are you able to isolate where the noise is coming from? Do you definitely know that it is from the Tranny?

Does the problem persist after the engine/fluid warms up to full operating temperatures?

Can you unplug the coolant temperature sensor from the water housing? Also, unplug the MAS. The car will run like poop, but you want to see if the noise continues at the same speed. Unplugging those two sensors should eliminate the ECU's ability to determing temperature.

There are two grey 4-pin plugs near the front passenger side. They look exactly the same, can canOne of them plugs into the Tranny. The other plugs in - I think - to the radiator. (Someone correct me, I may be wrong about the location.) Is it possible that these two plugs could have been switched?

Could you start the car and watch your engine bay in the dark? I just want to rule out the possibility of an arcing spark. Check the coils to see if spark is jumping off of one of them onto the valve cover. You should be able to see/hear it pretty easily at night.

StealthR/T 93 · 10-10-2006, 05:32 PM

Well, here's the even MORE interesting note. It will do that even while the engine isn't running! However, this isn't the sound that emanates when it's cold outside. THIS is the sound that comes from the transmission when placed in a forward gear (regardless of temperature). The sound that comes from the engine when cold is quite different...actually, it's pretty cold outside right now, maybe I can get a sound clip of it for you right now! But otherwise, yes, you described it perfectly...the one buzzing noise (in forward gear only) sounds like something hitting a fan blade, but the other noise (whch I will get for you in a moment) sounds like a bolt rattling around in a tin can (also rhythmic). I will get back to you in about 20 minutes with a sound recording...hopefully...

EDIT: It's not quite cold enough outside just yet for the "Park" noise...hopefully by 9:00 it'll be down to about 50 and she'll make the sound for me. Be prepared...it sure is one hell of a horrible sound

Hannibalzero · 10-10-2006, 07:39 PM

Yeah, I'd definitel like to hear that rattling noise. See if you can identify a location for it too. ie. Closer to the engine, closer to the wheel, from the bottom of the tranny, the top, axle area, etc...

StealthR/T 93 · 10-10-2006, 08:05 PM

Well, it didn't get cold enough out, and it's getting pretty late, so I'm just going to wait to do it tomorrow, as it's definitely going to be chilly all day! Anyway, the rattling sound is coming from the Bellhousing area, as opposed to the buzzing sound, which is coming from more towards the transmission fluid dipstick (could it be a solenoid?). Is it possible that in colder weather, since the fluid has a higher viscosity than in warmer weather, the TC isn't getting proper lubrication being that it is 93,000 miles old? That is also another thing to keep in mind...this transmission has 93,000 miles on it (orignal tranny), and even though it was babied throughout it's entire life, that's still a good amount of mileage on a transmission. Funny how the only things wrong with the car involve the transmission...but I was pretty prepared for that hearing about the reliability of these ATX's.

I do apologize if it seems like I'm not sure what I'm talking about...I am very mechanically inclined, but this is probably the first issue that I've encountered that I have no real idea what's going on without pulling the tranny. Two different issues occuring at once sure does complicate things

Hannibalzero · 10-10-2006, 08:32 PM

I don't think the viscosity of the tranny fluid would cause the rattle. At cold temps, the viscosity would be the same at park or in drive.

Feel like pulling the starter? If it is a bell housing rattle, I'd check for loose bolts - even if it does only happen under certain condiritons. Take the starter out, turn the crank, and check the four connecting bolts.

As for the fan noise... this only occurs when in drive? And it is not temperature specific? If that's the case, then don't worry about my earlier suggestion about unplugging the MAS and coolant sensor. Its probably not fan related so....

I would start looking at the electrical system. This could be a clicking relay. Try disconnecting the four or five wire harnesses from the tranny. Start the engine, move the shifter in Drive, and see if the noise continues. Then hook in the large harness (12 or 16 pin) and see if the noise starts (my guess is no). Now hook in each harness individually until the noise begins. My guess is that it is going to be the 4 pin harness (mentioned in post #2)

StealthR/T 93 · 10-12-2006, 11:50 AM

You were absolutely correct. When I disconnect the gray plug located directly underneath the MAS, the "buzzing" stops immediately. I was able to check this morning since I'm home with a stomach virus and have nothing much else to do

. I don't think this would also relate to the clanking in the bellhousing however. The first thing I checked, actually, was to make sure all the bolts were tightened on the TC. Pulled the starter at the end of last winter, to be exact. But atleast now we know the source of one of the problems. Now my question is, what does this part of the harness do in relation to the tranny? As I said earlier, when the throttle is BARELY opened, the buzzing stops also, so is it connected to the TPS in some way?

StealthR/T 93 · 10-13-2006, 09:41 AM

Okay...I was able to get a clip of the clanking noise that occurs at cold temperatures.

http://media.putfile.com/trannyclank

I used a long screwdriver and was placing it on different areas of the transmission to see if I could get a more precise location of where the noise is coming from, by putting my ear on the end of the handle (almost like a stethescope). Turns out, when I put the screwdriver directly on the starter, that's where the noise occurs the loudest. However, when I pulled the starter previously, everything looked fine

...Also, you were correct about the buzzing noise coming from a relay. When I disconnect that gray plug, the buzzing stops immediately, and restarts when the plug is reconnected. The wires coming from that plug go to the front of the transmission, and are actually bolted into the tranny itself, instead of simply plugged in. I hope this is a good enough description..if not, I can get a picture for you.

Oh, and this may seem pretty obvious, but when that plug is disconnected, the transmission goes into Safe Mode.

Hannibalzero · 10-19-2006, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StealthR/T 93

Okay...I was able to get a clip of the clanking noise that occurs at cold temperatures.

http://media.putfile.com/trannyclank

I used a long screwdriver and was placing it on different areas of the transmission to see if I could get a more precise location of where the noise is coming from, by putting my ear on the end of the handle (almost like a stethescope). Turns out, when I put the screwdriver directly on the starter, that's where the noise occurs the loudest. However, when I pulled the starter previously, everything looked fine

...Also, you were correct about the buzzing noise coming from a relay. When I disconnect that gray plug, the buzzing stops immediately, and restarts when the plug is reconnected. The wires coming from that plug go to the front of the transmission, and are actually bolted into the tranny itself, instead of simply plugged in. I hope this is a good enough description..if not, I can get a picture for you.

Oh, and this may seem pretty obvious, but when that plug is disconnected, the transmission goes into Safe Mode.

The clanking may not be related to the starter, but that seems like a good palce to start.

Could you try removing the starter relay and jumping the open pin to the starter? I belive you want to use the pin furthest toward the front. Just crimp a male end onto a 3 foot wire, insert the male end into the far pin where the relay was plugged, and touch the other end of the wire to the postive battery lead. The engine should be off before you start (or you will grind). You may need to have the key in the ignition to keep the engine going (I don't think so, but I can't remember). Once the engine has started, disconnect your wire.

Anyway, see if the noise occurs with the relay disconnected. After you remove your home-made hotwire, the starter should not receive power, and therefore would not make noise. If the noise stops, then I would try replacing the relay.

Do you have access to a known good starter? You may want to try swapping in a different starter, in case this one is not properly disengaging. While you have it out, try inspecting the gear edges of the torque converter for wear.

As for the humming harness - see if you can find the identical harness nearby. I know there is another 4 pin harness somewhere around there. I think mine was below the fuse box, but I'm not sure. Try switching the two harnesses and see if that resolves the problem.

StealthR/T 93 · 10-19-2006, 04:45 PM

I will definitely try switching the two harnesses around. However, it looks to be a pretty big stretch for both of the wires to reach the opposite connector, possibly not reaching each other. So if that's the case, I don't think they were ever switched.

In regards to the clanking...When I pulled the starter when the noise first began last winter, I checked to make sure that the teeth on the gears weren't worn abnormally, and also checked to make sure that the bendix gear was retracting properly. Everything checked out...and the possibility of it being a relay is probably not the case, since it only occurs when it's cold outside. My thinking (and this may sound logical or it may not), is that when it is colder outside, fluid flow through the tranny is not the same as it is when it's warmer, thus the torque converter is not getting the proper lubrication that it should. The reason I think this theory may hold water is because once the transmission FULLY warms up even when cold outside, the clanking totally disappears. I really want to flush out the tranny before it gets cold out, install a tranny cooler, new filter, and gasket and then see how everything is, but a big part of me wants to just wait until I am able to purchase an IPT reworked valve body to do everything at once.

10-07-2006, 11:43 AM	#1 (permalink)
StealthR/T 93 3S Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Jersey Drives: 1993 Stealth R/T Trader Rating: (2)	noise in Park has me stumped!-sound clip This really has me stumped.. Since last winter (the first winter I had owned the car), the transmission made a VERY loud clanking in Park, ONLY below 60 degrees ambient. The best way I can describe the sound is take a bolt, put it in a closed coffee can, and shake like crazy. It is rhythmic too, almost as if in sync with the engine. It is ONLY present in Park though. However, in any of the forward gears, there is a pretty loud buzzing sound which I have associated to a possible bad solenoid. Driveability hasn't been affected at all, and the clank isn't present on a warm day (above 60 degrees), but the buzz does not go away in any of the forward gears. Anyone have any ideas? I know there are some very intelligent ATX guys in here. I was planning on a pretty big ATX project for this car, but if this issue is pretty extensive, I may just ditch the ATX platform and convert to MTX . Help me out! EDIT: Here's a sound clip of the buzzing in any forward gear... http://media.putfile.com/tranny-audio-clip __________________ 1993 Dodge Stealth R/T Last edited by StealthR/T 93 : 10-09-2006 at 04:19 PM.

10-10-2006, 06:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
Hannibalzero H to the izzO Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern VA Drives: Recklessly Trader Rating: (55)	Re: noise in Park has me stumped! That sounds almost like something hitting a fan blade??? Actually, also kind of sounds like a spark arcing off of the coil and onto the block. Its very odd that this would occur only at colder temperatures. If it weren't for that, I would have said it were a Torque Converter bolt that had come loose. But it is also rythmic. Very odd. Are you able to isolate where the noise is coming from? Do you definitely know that it is from the Tranny? Does the problem persist after the engine/fluid warms up to full operating temperatures? Can you unplug the coolant temperature sensor from the water housing? Also, unplug the MAS. The car will run like poop, but you want to see if the noise continues at the same speed. Unplugging those two sensors should eliminate the ECU's ability to determing temperature. There are two grey 4-pin plugs near the front passenger side. They look exactly the same, can canOne of them plugs into the Tranny. The other plugs in - I think - to the radiator. (Someone correct me, I may be wrong about the location.) Is it possible that these two plugs could have been switched? Could you start the car and watch your engine bay in the dark? I just want to rule out the possibility of an arcing spark. Check the coils to see if spark is jumping off of one of them onto the valve cover. You should be able to see/hear it pretty easily at night. __________________

10-10-2006, 05:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
StealthR/T 93 3S Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Jersey Drives: 1993 Stealth R/T Trader Rating: (2)	Re: noise in Park has me stumped! Well, here's the even MORE interesting note. It will do that even while the engine isn't running! However, this isn't the sound that emanates when it's cold outside. THIS is the sound that comes from the transmission when placed in a forward gear (regardless of temperature). The sound that comes from the engine when cold is quite different...actually, it's pretty cold outside right now, maybe I can get a sound clip of it for you right now! But otherwise, yes, you described it perfectly...the one buzzing noise (in forward gear only) sounds like something hitting a fan blade, but the other noise (whch I will get for you in a moment) sounds like a bolt rattling around in a tin can (also rhythmic). I will get back to you in about 20 minutes with a sound recording...hopefully... EDIT: It's not quite cold enough outside just yet for the "Park" noise...hopefully by 9:00 it'll be down to about 50 and she'll make the sound for me. Be prepared...it sure is one hell of a horrible sound Last edited by StealthR/T 93 : 10-10-2006 at 06:05 PM.

10-10-2006, 07:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
Hannibalzero H to the izzO Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern VA Drives: Recklessly Trader Rating: (55)	Re: noise in Park has me stumped! Yeah, I'd definitel like to hear that rattling noise. See if you can identify a location for it too. ie. Closer to the engine, closer to the wheel, from the bottom of the tranny, the top, axle area, etc...

10-10-2006, 08:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
StealthR/T 93 3S Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Jersey Drives: 1993 Stealth R/T Trader Rating: (2)	Re: noise in Park has me stumped! Well, it didn't get cold enough out, and it's getting pretty late, so I'm just going to wait to do it tomorrow, as it's definitely going to be chilly all day! Anyway, the rattling sound is coming from the Bellhousing area, as opposed to the buzzing sound, which is coming from more towards the transmission fluid dipstick (could it be a solenoid?). Is it possible that in colder weather, since the fluid has a higher viscosity than in warmer weather, the TC isn't getting proper lubrication being that it is 93,000 miles old? That is also another thing to keep in mind...this transmission has 93,000 miles on it (orignal tranny), and even though it was babied throughout it's entire life, that's still a good amount of mileage on a transmission. Funny how the only things wrong with the car involve the transmission...but I was pretty prepared for that hearing about the reliability of these ATX's. I do apologize if it seems like I'm not sure what I'm talking about...I am very mechanically inclined, but this is probably the first issue that I've encountered that I have no real idea what's going on without pulling the tranny. Two different issues occuring at once sure does complicate things

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10-10-2006, 08:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
Hannibalzero H to the izzO Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northern VA Drives: Recklessly Trader Rating: (55)	Re: noise in Park has me stumped! I don't think the viscosity of the tranny fluid would cause the rattle. At cold temps, the viscosity would be the same at park or in drive. Feel like pulling the starter? If it is a bell housing rattle, I'd check for loose bolts - even if it does only happen under certain condiritons. Take the starter out, turn the crank, and check the four connecting bolts. As for the fan noise... this only occurs when in drive? And it is not temperature specific? If that's the case, then don't worry about my earlier suggestion about unplugging the MAS and coolant sensor. Its probably not fan related so.... I would start looking at the electrical system. This could be a clicking relay. Try disconnecting the four or five wire harnesses from the tranny. Start the engine, move the shifter in Drive, and see if the noise continues. Then hook in the large harness (12 or 16 pin) and see if the noise starts (my guess is no). Now hook in each harness individually until the noise begins. My guess is that it is going to be the 4 pin harness (mentioned in post #2)

10-12-2006, 11:50 AM	#7 (permalink)
StealthR/T 93 3S Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Jersey Drives: 1993 Stealth R/T Trader Rating: (2)	Re: noise in Park has me stumped! You were absolutely correct. When I disconnect the gray plug located directly underneath the MAS, the "buzzing" stops immediately. I was able to check this morning since I'm home with a stomach virus and have nothing much else to do . I don't think this would also relate to the clanking in the bellhousing however. The first thing I checked, actually, was to make sure all the bolts were tightened on the TC. Pulled the starter at the end of last winter, to be exact. But atleast now we know the source of one of the problems. Now my question is, what does this part of the harness do in relation to the tranny? As I said earlier, when the throttle is BARELY opened, the buzzing stops also, so is it connected to the TPS in some way?

10-13-2006, 09:41 AM	#8 (permalink)
StealthR/T 93 3S Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Jersey Drives: 1993 Stealth R/T Trader Rating: (2)	Re: noise in Park has me stumped! Okay...I was able to get a clip of the clanking noise that occurs at cold temperatures. http://media.putfile.com/trannyclank I used a long screwdriver and was placing it on different areas of the transmission to see if I could get a more precise location of where the noise is coming from, by putting my ear on the end of the handle (almost like a stethescope). Turns out, when I put the screwdriver directly on the starter, that's where the noise occurs the loudest. However, when I pulled the starter previously, everything looked fine ...Also, you were correct about the buzzing noise coming from a relay. When I disconnect that gray plug, the buzzing stops immediately, and restarts when the plug is reconnected. The wires coming from that plug go to the front of the transmission, and are actually bolted into the tranny itself, instead of simply plugged in. I hope this is a good enough description..if not, I can get a picture for you. Oh, and this may seem pretty obvious, but when that plug is disconnected, the transmission goes into Safe Mode. Last edited by StealthR/T 93 : 10-13-2006 at 12:03 PM.

10-19-2006, 04:45 PM	#10 (permalink)
StealthR/T 93 3S Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Jersey Drives: 1993 Stealth R/T Trader Rating: (2)	Re: noise in Park has me stumped! I will definitely try switching the two harnesses around. However, it looks to be a pretty big stretch for both of the wires to reach the opposite connector, possibly not reaching each other. So if that's the case, I don't think they were ever switched. In regards to the clanking...When I pulled the starter when the noise first began last winter, I checked to make sure that the teeth on the gears weren't worn abnormally, and also checked to make sure that the bendix gear was retracting properly. Everything checked out...and the possibility of it being a relay is probably not the case, since it only occurs when it's cold outside. My thinking (and this may sound logical or it may not), is that when it is colder outside, fluid flow through the tranny is not the same as it is when it's warmer, thus the torque converter is not getting the proper lubrication that it should. The reason I think this theory may hold water is because once the transmission FULLY warms up even when cold outside, the clanking totally disappears. I really want to flush out the tranny before it gets cold out, install a tranny cooler, new filter, and gasket and then see how everything is, but a big part of me wants to just wait until I am able to purchase an IPT reworked valve body to do everything at once.