Alcohol vs. Nitrous vs. Propane vs. Water

[Rustang Cobra]

he just got his car running yesterday....so hes boosted 0 so far with 16gs

he hit 17psi with 14bs but they were a buttload faster than 17psi with just pump gas

theres a guy in the snow performance GB II thread who said he hit 22psi w/15gs and put down 450awhp....those are the kinda numbers im lookin for

[RedPepper]

In one of the first posts, it was said that methanol is very corrosive to engine components. However, according to derekdevises.com it's not. Check it out:
"Many will tell you methanol is terribly corrosive and will eat your engine. Simply untrue. Methanol is corrosive to certain materials when it sits for long periods of time in the delivery system. The fine mist that travels through your motor at 60-100MPH isn’t going to corrode anything. It mostly vaporizes into the air, and the rest just floats along. I HIGHLY recommend if you plan to use 100% methanol, that you treat it with a lube called Uplon, made by Klotz Lubricants. This is a special methanol fueling lube. Uplon acts both as an upper cylinder lube, and an injection system protectant. My pump has been running for many weeks now and sits with methanol inside the pump and lines (no flushing, etc needed). The whole system continues to function as new. I recently disassembled the kit, and inspected it. NO signs of deterioration was evident in any part of the system.
Methanol availability and/or cost: Methanol is usually the easiest alcohol to buy in bulk, and usually the cheapest. I buy 5 gallon cans for $15. You may have to call around in your town for a source, but there should be at least one. Once you find one, please report it to me. I would like to keep a running list of good methanol suppliers in US cities."

According to Dave at coolingmist.com, 100% water injection has higher anti knock capabilities than mixing in alcohol, methanol, or any other additive. Now just for simplicitie's sake, I think that's what I'll personally be running. That way I don't have to play mad scientist. Hehe

[RedPepper]

He's a logger graph of a fellow water inj. user. This is on his 92 Laser RS Turbo AWD. Anyway, check out his amazing results:
http://www.pcrepair911.com/pics/waterbig.jpg

[TajMan]

I'm gonna be doing alchy/meth injection with my 10:1 TT car. Even with a stock TT fuel system at ~12 psi I assume you need an SAFC to tune as soon as you hit the alchy/water injection, right?

And I've got some blue windshield washer fluid that says its 50% water 50% methanol.

[dlabonte]

Jim,

Great thread you started, lots of good technical discussion. I work with Snow Performance on their W/M system so am a little biased toward it, but I have heard of others getting the same knock control benifit as W/M with propane. One of the myths about propane is that it lowers EGTs. This is because the temp change from the pressure drop is quickly dissipated in the hot air intake charge. W/M lowers temps by slowing down the combustion burn some along with the atomised water particals absorbing heat from the air intake and sending that heat out the exhaust (same as coolant in a radiator)

Test data taken by the National Advisory Committe for Aeronautics shows that a 50/50 mix has better performance, knock control, and fuel economy then straight water. Here is a link to the report on the Snow Performance web site:
http://www.snowperformance.net/files..._injection.pdf

We have tested mixes of 25/75 W/M on diesel engines that show higher hp gains but less cooling benifits. So recomend 50/50 as an optimal mix for performance and cooling gains.

As IPO mentioned 50/50 mix is harder to find these days off the shelf. So most mix it themselves or settle for a 60/40 mix of washerfluid. SP is working on establishing a distribution network of a 50/50 mix that should be inplace this summer.

As a plug for IPO, their DMBC works great. I have had nothing but problems with the right angle type of MBC. I was able to set the DMBC with my air compressor before install and the setting was very close. The dual setting is a low cost alternative to an EBC and allows me to lower the boost while road racing in the event I might run out of W/M (or have to have the car in for something I can't fix)

We all know that methanol is corrosive, so the injection system must be designed to withstand this for when fluid is stationary for peariods of time. One of our test vehicales has had the system installed for over three years and shows no signs of excess wear on engine internals. A number of copy cat systems have appeard on the market recently that do not account for methanol and will fail over time. The primary failure mode is the pump. We have contracted with our pump supplyer for a hardend version of their commercal pump that has been tested to withstand methanol.

Snow performance stands behind their product with a 1yr replacement warranty and great customer service.

One board member, Tom Williams, has posted great results with the SP system on a 3S. dyno AWHP of 467 was acheived at 22.5psi using 660cc and TEC15Gs on pump gas. Also EGTs were at or below 200deg Celsius.

I attached his data log for referance.

I hope this is helpful info for those interesed in this subject.

Best regards,

Dan Labonte

[Jimmy Nuetron]

Back in the 70's my dad had a straight water injection set up on his chevy van (N/A of course) that ran off the smog pump, so it only came into play when the engine was hot, and under load. He got better gas mileage, better power, cooler engine, and no knock running his setup, which was a kit. The only trouble he ever had was when he parked on a hill, and his primary tank drained into a cylinder and hydrolocked, but he blew it out, and it was fine. The water/steam keeps the whole cylinder head cleaner, not just the intake and stuff. Now obviously our cars dont have smog pumps, but if the new systems work well, you get a cheap setup, with cheap upkeep. I mean, the setups are typically the cheapest, and the distilled water is cheap as can be. Water has to be the safest and cheapest by far, and corrosion should be minimal.
As for model fuel, it typically available with a 15%, 20%, 25%, or 30% nitro content 0%-20% oil content (synthenic, castor, or both) and the rest is basically methanol. The jugs are well labeled with the contents, and though ive been tempted, ive never tried the stuff in a gas mix. The cost is significant, typically running close to $30 a gal for the good stuff.

I guess im sorta resurecting a dead thread, but I figured id put what i know down for others to see.

James

[Synchro]

Thanks for bringing it back up. The bump was VERY informative for us who haven't seen this thread before.

I know I'm installing a water/alc kit as soon as I can afford it.

[Mammoth gt]

Originally Posted by RedPepper

In one of the first posts, it was said that methanol is very corrosive to engine components. However, according to derekdevises.com it's not. Check it out:
"Many will tell you methanol is terribly corrosive and will eat your engine. Simply untrue. Methanol is corrosive to certain materials when it sits for long periods of time in the delivery system. The fine mist that travels through your motor at 60-100MPH isn’t going to corrode anything. It mostly vaporizes into the air, and the rest just floats along. I HIGHLY recommend if you plan to use 100% methanol, that you treat it with a lube called Uplon, made by Klotz Lubricants. This is a special methanol fueling lube. Uplon acts both as an upper cylinder lube, and an injection system protectant. My pump has been running for many weeks now and sits with methanol inside the pump and lines (no flushing, etc needed). The whole system continues to function as new. I recently disassembled the kit, and inspected it. NO signs of deterioration was evident in any part of the system.
Methanol availability and/or cost: Methanol is usually the easiest alcohol to buy in bulk, and usually the cheapest. I buy 5 gallon cans for $15. You may have to call around in your town for a source, but there should be at least one. Once you find one, please report it to me. I would like to keep a running list of good methanol suppliers in US cities."

According to Dave at coolingmist.com, 100% water injection has higher anti knock capabilities than mixing in alcohol, methanol, or any other additive. Now just for simplicitie's sake, I think that's what I'll personally be running. That way I don't have to play mad scientist. Hehe

Good read, thanks. I'm gonna try just straight water.
I've got my car up to 19psi with no knock, pump gas, running DR's Boost Cooler2 kit. I had -20 windshield cleaner in the oem windshield washer reservoir. What % methanol is that?

I'll tell ya what, though, the reservoir empties REAL quick. Gotta keep a close eye on it if you are boosting around town.

Dan

[dlabonte]

Hey Mammoth,

Glad you like the kit, DR now is a distributor for Snow Performance, I designed the controller for the Stage-II you have. What nozzle did you install, the 375 or 625?

-20 washer fluid will be around 30-36% methanol. I have a number of MSDS sheets that I can look up for various manufactures and post the ratios.

Snow Performance is now selling Boost Juice. It is garunteed 51/49 Water/Methanol mix. I get methanol from a local shop that runs dragsters and mix it with water to get 50/50. From my research 50/50 is the best mix to get the benifit of knock control, performance, and lower EGT. You can run other ratios, but then will give up something for a gain in other area.

Best regards,

Dan Labonte

[Mammoth gt]

Originally Posted by dlabonte

Hey Mammoth,

Glad you like the kit, DR now is a distributor for Snow Performance, I designed the controller for the Stage-II you have. What nozzle did you install, the 375 or 625?

-20 washer fluid will be around 30-36% methanol. I have a number of MSDS sheets that I can look up for various manufactures and post the ratios.

Snow Performance is now selling Boost Juice. It is garunteed 51/49 Water/Methanol mix. I get methanol from a local shop that runs dragsters and mix it with water to get 50/50. From my research 50/50 is the best mix to get the benifit of knock control, performance, and lower EGT. You can run other ratios, but then will give up something for a gain in other area.

Best regards,

Dan Labonte

Thanks for chiming in. I dunno what nozzle they put in there. I called Justin to ask and he didn't know and no one else was there.