Alcohol vs. Nitrous vs. Propane vs. Water

[twiceblown]

I've run into problems with the alky pumps seizing if they've been sitting for a period of time in a methanol environment (i had 50% water/meth). After a month sitting stagnant, the SMC pump corroded and seized up, making it useless. If I were to go 100% methanol, i'd make sure that all components were completely compatable with methanol and don't run the risk of corrosion. Perhaps denatured works nearly as well as meth and can sit longer without the risks. Also, SMC's kit currently does not offer any feed back as to whether the pump is actually pumping or just current passing through. So, if there is a pump failure, you don't know it.

[Jeremy R]

make sure your pump is nickel alloy plated to handle meth. I believe that's the suggested material.

[twiceblown]

My pump was the upgraded pump from SMC directly. In fact, they did the install.

All components in the pump need to be corrosion resistent to methanol. Obviously, some components in the pump I got (like the housing and main rotor) were not.

I'm not bagging on SMC's system. This is not a grip, just that I was told that running 50/50 water/meth would work fine, and well, it didn't.

Denatured is significantly less corrosive and if you worry about pump failure due to corrosion, then stick with denatured or pure water.

[ulrich]

One thing about the propane: The temp of the propane barely goes down any even if you have a long feed line. It still turns from liquid to gas at the nozzle, not when it hits the feed line. And that is where it essentially gets its temperature from.


-uli

[SteveF_GT]

Bringing this thread out from the dead. I'm looking to run a 50/50 water/methanol mix. What's the cheapest kit out there?

[DJ_Duck]

Alcohol/Methanol injection:

Basically this system has the same properties as a water injection system, but injects a fuel instead of just water. Pure alcohol or methanol injection will destroy seals. Methyl alcohol and Ethyl alcohol are completely soluble in water, so can be used in any ratio. Stoichiometric ratio is a lot "richer" then with gasoline, depending on the type of alcohol it ranges from 6:1 to 11:1. This is beneficial in that you can inject more alcohol per air unit opposed to gasoline per air unit, thus leading to more of a cooling effect. Also alcohol reduces emissions
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Nitrous injection:

This is a power additive with a very slight cooling ability. I wouldn't recommend spraying as a way to increase the boost, as more then likely you will have to turn down the boost to help control the knock.
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Propane injection

This is an octane booster with a slight cooling ability and a slight power additive. I'm not 100% sure on the benefits of running propane, but this is what I've picked up on. (Aka: grain of salt). Propane is fairly cheap to fill. Propane comes out at a very very low temperature. The only problem I have with propane injection is first of all you now have an additional explosive sitting in your car, second, your injecting a very very combustible gas into a very very hot air charge, and third nearly every system I've seen bases the injection on boost pressures, and decreases fuel based on RPM, in the wrong circumstances I foresee bad things happening.
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Water injection

This is the safest of all the injection systems, also the one with the lowest return. Basically water is injected into a hot air charge. The water vaporizes, absorbing heat from the air. Unfortunately you now have water in your air, which dampens combustion. So, used by itself you will probably see a decrease in efficiency/power. Used in conjunction with increased boost (now safer due to lower charge air temps) is where it shines. Also has the side "benefit" (so I'm told) of steam cleaning your intake system, this can obviously help with carbon deposits if you have your EGR still hooked up, can also cause rust if it sits long enough.

(feel free to add onto this)
(sorry I didn't break it into points for ya Jimbo)

[Jim Floyd]

Mr. Duck,

Thanks for your input. I'll take what I can get.
Does the water/alchy mix have the same cleaning effect on carbon that straight water does ?

[RussianVR-4]

i can tell you 1 thing. i have the www.derekdevises.com methanol kit and i have been able to run 2 kgcm2 boost on 91 octane and 100% methanol injection. logging absolutely NO KNOCK.

[Trevor]

A few things.

- Methanol kicks denatured in the butt. If I remember right denatured is only 8% Methanol and 92% Ethanol. Both Ethanol and Methanol are 100 octane but for some reason methanol has alot better knock reduction capabilities. I believe its because methanol mixes more readily with the charge air so you're able to get more in the motor without bogging it. There's more energy to push down a piston with Ethanol but for knock reduction pure Methanol is where its at.

- Propane gas provides a hair more energy than the alcohol but still has much less than gasoline. It's usually quoted at around 104 octane.

- Stoich with gas is 14.7:1 (duh). Propane is 15.7:1, Ethanol is 9:1, and Methanol is 6.45:1. Don't let that throw you with your wideband though...widebands are calibrated so that stoich with ANY fuel is always 14.7:1. That means that if you had a motor idling perfectly on pure methanol (no gasoline) your wideband would show 14.7:1 even though the true Air to Fuel ratio was 6.45:1. That also means that you shouldn't change your target A/F's while running a supplemental fuel injection.

- Corrosion from methaol is hard on the injection systems. I think the previously mentioned derekdevices kit is the onlyone that claims compatibility. Not sure if it will truly hold up to years of use.

- SMC's setup now has progressive control and a positive feedback "On" light that uses a hobbs switch to tell you for sure if there's pressure in the lines or not.

- Alcohol of any kind doesn't contain much energy and you will go thru it quickly when you've got it tuned optimally. I run two 7 GPH nozzles with the gasoline leaned out to compensate and my low alcohol light comes on after 9-11 full passes down the strip. That's with a 1/2 gallon reservoir and there's still a couple inches of alchy in the bottom when the light comes on. SMC offers a approx 12H x 8W x 5 one gallon tank for a few more dollars but I don't have room for it under the hood.

- The pumps in the SMC kit don't fare well if you let them dry out after using them for awhile. You have to keep them wet. I've lost two pumps to this over the years but SMC has been happy to replace them for a minimal fee. I'm not sure if the dereksdevices kits have the same problems. I believe gasoline fuel pumps are degraded when dried out too but it's not as severe as the pumps SMC is using. Just something to keep in mind.

I hope that helped you guys out. I'm thinking about making a alchy system around a 5 gallon fuel cell in the back of the car with a SMC controller running the show. Maybe finally find out if the long supply hose really causes a problem or not.