Alcohol vs. Nitrous vs. Propane vs. Water

[RoVR4]

Jim using Windshield washer fluid would be consider a water injection kit...even though it has 50% meth in it. Its also 50% water....cheap as distilled water but with the added benifits of having meth in it (well 1/2 meth)

I have the SMC alky kit..same benifits of running more boost from higher octane and cooler charge.

also..new kit has a 1/2 gallon tank...very very very easy to install

and you use denatured alky in it. 7.99 a gallon at lowes or home depot.

Trevor is a great example of a member using it with great sucess and you can get a complete kit for 375 shipped (well i did) its usually 399.00 + shipping

Use the 10gph nozzle instead of the 15gph nozzle that comes with the kit.....but steve at SMC will send you a 10gph for free.

also....beneift...in car tunibility...controls are almost exactly like the Pro-pain kit Dynamic racing sells.

[92vr4ny]

"Propane injection you can definately run shit loads of boost, but there are hardly any cooling effects."

Propane comes out of the bottle at -60F if I remember correctly?!?!

[maddux317]

I'm trying to decide on propane or water/alcohol injection for my 10:1 TT setup. Knock comes a lot sooner on 10:1 with pump gas. I've been considering the IPO propane kit. Yes, propane does come out around -60F and is around 115 octane. I believe IPO hit 11's at 23 PSI or something on pump gas and propane. Although, it is kind of scary knowing you have a tank of highly explosive gas in your trunk. You might want to add that and the temperature and octane ratings of propane into the encyclopedia.

[Jeremy R]

Originally Posted by maddux317

I'm trying to decide on propane or water/alcohol injection for my 10:1 TT setup. Knock comes a lot sooner on 10:1 with pump gas. I've been considering the IPO propane kit. Yes, propane does come out around -60F and is around 115 octane. I believe IPO hit 11's at 23 PSI or something on pump gas and propane. Although, it is kind of scary knowing you have a tank of highly explosive gas in your trunk. You might want to add that and the temperature and octane ratings of propane into the encyclopedia.

the thing with the propane and it's temps is that when it LEAVES the bottle it's that temp. It then has to travel approximately 17 ft from MY tank to the bay, so the cooling just isn't there anymore. Maybe if you had a system where the propane line was only like 2 feet you could do it (maybe mount the tank in the passenger foot area?!?!?!

You speak of highly explosily gas, but you fail to realize that the gas tank sits about 10 inches from the rear of the car and is made from some of the THINNEST metal. You can take a scredriver and drop it end first on a gas take from about 10 inches away and puncture the thing.
With this in mind take any colisoin in mind. The gas tank will go WAY before the propane will. Propane tanks are made to be abused. Ever see how thick they are and the consice deisgn that goes into every single one??? It actaully makes me wish that that much thought was put into the gas tank.

Blowing up from propane should be FAR from a worry unless you shoot at the tank with a shot gun shell on a normal basis

[Air2001]

Originally Posted by stealthvader

the thing with the propane and it's temps is that when it LEAVES the bottle it's that temp. It then has to travel approximately 17 ft from MY tank to the bay, so the cooling just isn't there anymore. Maybe if you had a system where the propane line was only like 2 feet you could do it (maybe mount the tank in the passenger foot area?!?!?!

You speak of highly explosily gas, but you fail to realize that the gas tank sits about 10 inches from the rear of the car and is made from some of the THINNEST metal. You can take a scredriver and drop it end first on a gas take from about 10 inches away and puncture the thing.
With this in mind take any colisoin in mind. The gas tank will go WAY before the propane will. Propane tanks are made to be abused. Ever see how thick they are and the consice deisgn that goes into every single one??? It actaully makes me wish that that much thought was put into the gas tank.

Blowing up from propane should be FAR from a worry unless you shoot at the tank with a shot gun shell on a normal basis

The cooling effect of propane discussion should not go any further. It's colder than ambient air due to significant pressure drop threw the release nozzle. And the air being injected into your engine is much hotter than ambient due to the compression undergone in the turbos. Heat Transfer 101 -there is no way that the ambient air, which is already cooler than the air going through your y-pipe (post compression air), can heat up the propane to a temperature higher than that in the y-pipe!

Now on to the danger of the propane cylinder. True, every car has a gas tank, but did you ever notice that you are partitioned from that tank by STEEL. In the 60's the first Mustangs had the gas tank as the floor of the trunk with no steel fireshield between the tank the the back seats. In some rear collisions people were burned alive due to explosions that ripped through the cloth of the back seats and into the front of the car. Later, FORD closed off the trunk floor with sheet steel and this problem was no longer an issue. It is the same for the propane tank that so many people install in the rear of the car; it has no fireshielding between it and the passengers. In order to make it safer, or at least as safe as a gas tank it is imperative that at the least it be separated from the passenger compartment by sheet metal or placed outside of a vehicle. Carrying a bomb next to you is very different from carrying one between you and a steel barrier.

[mjannusch]

If this is a guide to preventing/reducing detonation, please add:

Timing Retard strategies/products:

MSD DIS4 / DIS4-HO - can retard timing based on boost pressure
GReddy e-Manage - can set retard based on up to 16x16 timing map
EFI Systems PMS - can adjust timing based on 16x16? timing map or manifold pressure
AEM EMS - full timing control


Turbo upgrades with larger turbine sections:

TD04H/TD04HL/TE04H-based turbo upgrades (DR500, DR650R, "true" 15G, GT368SX, etc) - larger exhaust turbine reduces hot exhaust gas reversion into cylinder during end of exhaust stroke and start of intake stroke where the cams overlap.

TD05/TD06 turbo setups (14B, 16G, 18G, 20G) - larger exhaust turbine and higher A/R (larger exhaust housing with more flow area) further reduces exhaust gas reversion and backpressure.

Garrett turbo setups (DR-1000R, etc) - Generally will see further improvements on exhaust side over the TD05 setups. Greater choice of housings/wheels and better aerodynamics in general.

[92vr4ny]

the thing with the propane and it's temps is that when it LEAVES the bottle it's that temp. It then has to travel approximately 17 ft from MY tank to the bay, so the cooling just isn't there anymore.

I know Air2001 already said something but also think how long it takes to travel that 17ft. It is not slowly pooring into the engine it is under extreme pressure. The engine is a few hundred degrees and the heat can not transferr that fast with propane moving through the lines with such velocity! Maybe if the propane was sitting in the lines it would work up but as soon as you hit boost you would instantly use all that plus a fresh supply of propane so no matter what you always getting the cooling effect. Is propane a range of octanes or also consistant. I have heard 114-117 range I think before but also heard just alot of 114 which is what I always quote.

[MeTrzan]

Originally Posted by mjannusch

If this is a guide to preventing/reducing detonation, please add:

Timing Retard strategies/products:

MSD DIS4 / DIS4-HO - can retard timing based on boost pressure

Since when mine is only based on RPM not boost

[Jeremy R]

they have an additional feature that you can buy for like 4xx that gives you the ability to control timing on and off of boost that plugs right into the dis-4.

[WARdriver]

Good info here...any additional comments?

chris