Alcohol vs. Nitrous vs. Propane vs. Water

[MadgwickTT]

Originally Posted by dlabonte

The amount of intake cooling and detonation control needed at low boost is not the same at higher boost levels. For example: Lets say the car is running 26psi and makes 450rwhp. For water-meth you would need about 570ml/min with this set up. If using an on/off switch you will get full flow at the onset, lets say 10psi activated with Hobbs switch. But at 10psi hp is lower say 300 at that point, so you only need 300ml/min. Injecting 570 at 10psi would be to much fluid and hp will drop some from combustion quench.

The variable controllers regulate the injection amount based on the load of the engine. This allows for maximum hp gains across the entire RPM band.

The controllers actually send a PWM signal out to the pump to regulate pressure. Min pressure is 60psi to get good atomization of the fluid out of the nozzle. As the engine load goes up, so does the signal to the pump to increase pressure. More pressure at the nozzle results in more flow.

Our controllers have been designed to account for the non-linear characteristics of the pump-pressure-flow dynamics. This provide the best possible injection curve for the controller resulting in flatter A/F curves, and easy tuning.

We keep our systems simple for wiring, install and tuning. The basic design is set and forget. Once it is set, forget about it and make the power you want without expensive race gas.

Best regards,

Dan

You info-mercial watching mastermind!!!! hahaha, but question for real, i run a gm maf blow thru so i would want the vc-25 not the 25d right?

[dlabonte]

LOL, I don't watch to much TV these days.

Yes the VC-25 would be correct for blow through setup. Else if you want exact control check out the new VCS3G - Water-Meth fueling computer.

http://www.labontemotorsports.com/st...how/VCS3G.html

Best regards,

Dan

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by dlabonte

Yes the VC-25 would be correct for blow through setup. Else if you want exact control check out the new VCS3G - Water-Meth fueling computer.

http://www.labontemotorsports.com/st...how/VCS3G.html

That's pretty impressive.. Wish I hadn't already made a purchase

[Import Power]

Originally Posted by dlabonte

The amount of intake cooling and detonation control needed at low boost is not the same at higher boost levels. For example: Lets say the car is running 26psi and makes 450rwhp. For water-meth you would need about 570ml/min with this set up. If using an on/off switch you will get full flow at the onset, lets say 10psi activated with Hobbs switch. But at 10psi hp is lower say 300 at that point, so you only need 300ml/min. Injecting 570 at 10psi would be to much fluid and hp will drop some from combustion quench.

The variable controllers regulate the injection amount based on the load of the engine. This allows for maximum hp gains across the entire RPM band.

The controllers actually send a PWM signal out to the pump to regulate pressure. Min pressure is 60psi to get good atomization of the fluid out of the nozzle. As the engine load goes up, so does the signal to the pump to increase pressure. More pressure at the nozzle results in more flow.

Our controllers have been designed to account for the non-linear characteristics of the pump-pressure-flow dynamics. This provide the best possible injection curve for the controller resulting in flatter A/F curves, and easy tuning.

We keep our systems simple for wiring, install and tuning. The basic design is set and forget. Once it is set, forget about it and make the power you want without expensive race gas.

Best regards,

Dan

Sounds like a very nice progressive controller. I will be looking into your system more when It gets closer to install time.

thanks
chris

[Gamerse]

Did you guys ever hash out the pros n cons, in an apples VS oranges fashion? I'm a big fan of water meth for its charge cooling propperties, and even if your dirt poor, between the isles of a hardware store that sells welding supplies and an NAPA, you can put togather your own primative system on the cheap.
Which is another thing, the all important HP/Dollar ratio. Shouldn't this be a part of this great comparison?
For my technical inquery, isn't propane technically a dry fuel, and as such, it has less effect on the charge temp in comparison to ohh say, water, meth, alcahol? From my view, propane has some basic advantages, VS dumping more wet fuels, in that its easier on the lubricated parts by not washing the cylinders walls and burning cleanly. Its downfall I would think is the install costs. The cheapest kits I've seen start around $600.00
I've also read some misguided woes about them blowing up, yea, if the cars already on fire. The last I read, propane tanks have a higher puncture resistance than gasoline tanks. With a propper bottle/electronic safeties, say, ohh, like what is used on N20 systems, it could be just as safe.
I don't see nitrous as a even being a knock deterent, in any way period. Most of the time you end up adding fuel to the system to prevent it from causing detonation.
You don't have to come up with dyno charts and knock count graphs to figure out water/meth/alcahol work, and work well. Its nothing new, water kits, (be it by small and unheard of companies) were produced for draw through k-based chryslers way back in the 80s. Why it has just now become mainstream in the camaro/mustang world in the past 5-10 years is beyond me.

I'm by no means a genius, I don't think I have anything to add but basic perspective and simple science, but thats why I'm reading this, to learn from you guys and exchange ideas on the topic.
So, where's the pro's/cons list?

[spfan]

Originally Posted by Gamerse

For my technical inquery, isn't propane technically a dry fuel, and as such, it has less effect on the charge temp in comparison to ohh say, water, meth, alcahol?

Its downfall I would think is the install costs. The cheapest kits I've seen start around $600.00

you gotta remember though, when a gas goes from high pressure to low pressure, it's temperature will drop. propane goes from a liquid state (very high pressure) to a gaseous state (much lower pressure) so it cools down significantly. that has a cooling effect on the intake charge.

i don't remember what ipo used to sell his kits for, but it was less than $600. i know DR used to sell a kit. don't remember the specific cost, but i believe it was under 600 as well. and after that, propane is relatively cheap to refill, as is meth/water.

as far as results, i don't have the webpage offhand, but i remember ipo did some tests with a datalogger a few years ago on a 17g vr4, and knock was all but eliminated. i don't remember the specifics of the test as it's been a year or two since i visited that page.

[Jim Floyd]

Originally Posted by Gamerse

Did you guys ever hash out the pros n cons, in an apples VS oranges fashion? I'm a big fan of water meth for its charge cooling propperties, and even if your dirt poor, between the isles of a hardware store that sells welding supplies and an NAPA, you can put togather your own primative system on the cheap.
Which is another thing, the all important HP/Dollar ratio. Shouldn't this be a part of this great comparison?
For my technical inquery, isn't propane technically a dry fuel, and as such, it has less effect on the charge temp in comparison to ohh say, water, meth, alcahol? From my view, propane has some basic advantages, VS dumping more wet fuels, in that its easier on the lubricated parts by not washing the cylinders walls and burning cleanly. Its downfall I would think is the install costs. The cheapest kits I've seen start around $600.00
I've also read some misguided woes about them blowing up, yea, if the cars already on fire. The last I read, propane tanks have a higher puncture resistance than gasoline tanks. With a propper bottle/electronic safeties, say, ohh, like what is used on N20 systems, it could be just as safe.
I don't see nitrous as a even being a knock deterent, in any way period. Most of the time you end up adding fuel to the system to prevent it from causing detonation.
You don't have to come up with dyno charts and knock count graphs to figure out water/meth/alcahol work, and work well. Its nothing new, water kits, (be it by small and unheard of companies) were produced for draw through k-based chryslers way back in the 80s. Why it has just now become mainstream in the camaro/mustang world in the past 5-10 years is beyond me.

I'm by no means a genius, I don't think I have anything to add but basic perspective and simple science, but thats why I'm reading this, to learn from you guys and exchange ideas on the topic.
So, where's the pro's/cons list?

That was nicely presented, thank you for sharing.
You seem like a well organized person perhaps you would do us the honor of setting that up.