Alcohol vs. Nitrous vs. Propane vs. Water

[dlabonte]

Originally Posted by SHiVeR-91VR4

What was the point when you reached too much?
How much is too little?

I'm trying to find out how much I need for how much HP I have.
Is there a sized nozzle you get with the kit, or is it one fits all type thing?

To little is when you have knock, too much and engine bogs. Nozzle size will vary based on your FWHP, what size injectors are you running and boost levels?

Dan

[sound]

Just thought I would mention here that I am using Water Injection (coolingmist) & it has enabled me to increase my boost from a safe 15psi to 20psi safely on 91 octane fuel. I have 15G's & all supporting mods + Haltech E6K engine management.
Keep the discussion going...very interesting & informative.
Regards,
Edmund

[twiceblown]

Originally Posted by sound

Just thought I would mention here that I am using Water Injection (coolingmist) & it has enabled me to increase my boost from a safe 15psi to 20psi safely on 91 octane fuel. I have 15G's & all supporting mods + Haltech E6K engine management.
Keep the discussion going...very interesting & informative.
Regards,
Edmund

Do you feel a substantial gain in power from 15psi without water injection vs. 20psi with?

I still think that if you gain say 17hp/psi without w/m, that # will drop if you require it to run increased boost. yes, you'll be making more HP than without it, but doesn't this seems like a tuning bandaid rather to anyone else (and not just w/m, but propane, too)?

From what i learned while i was working along side some Japanese supertuners at my previous place of employment, none of them use w/m injection, or any other knock supression tool for that matter, only tuning. Proper products, boost, timing, and a/f all in concert to play a fantastic tune to the order of the best feeling car, not necessarily the fastest or highest HP# posting car.

[SHiVeR-91VR4]

Originally Posted by dlabonte

To little is when you have knock, too much and engine bogs. Nozzle size will vary based on your FWHP, what size injectors are you running and boost levels?

Dan

I have ~600 awhp, and after another upgrade planning on having upwards of 800. So just an estimate on nozzles for both would be great.



Also, this does not increase HP ONE BIT AT ALL. It REDUCES HP. All it does it allow you to run more boost and get more useable HP that you currrently can't use because of octane.

If you're running pump + water injection at 30psi lets say and you have 700 HP. If you switch to straight race vp16 and run 30psi, you will GAIN LOTS of HP. In supras I have seen a jump of ~75 HP at the 700HP levels.

They would dyno 600 on pump (limit of octane), 700 on pump + meth, and 775 on race gas.

It's just a cheap way of not having to buy race gas, but getting more than what pump gas can offer. At the track, I would personally still use leaded vp16.

[SHiVeR-91VR4]

Originally Posted by twiceblown

Do you feel a substantial gain in power from 15psi without water injection vs. 20psi with?

I still think that if you gain say 17hp/psi without w/m, that # will drop if you require it to run increased boost. yes, you'll be making more HP than without it, but doesn't this seems like a tuning bandaid rather to anyone else (and not just w/m, but propane, too)?

Yes, a substantial gain will be had. You will not get ALL the power you possibly could at 20psi and race gas, but you will get most of it, as long as your turbos are big enough to hold 20psi to redline.

That's all it is, is a bandaid....and a VERY nice one. It saves 2-3 times the cost of gasoline and you get 90% of the power you could with race gas. It's a nice mod if you have big turbos and want to run 20+ psi on the street, but don't want to drain $150 worth of race gas every fillup.


My big question is still on how much is too much. I'm going to run 50/50 meth/water that I will mix, and I was thinking of getting the ~7gph ~= .12gpm nozzle. The supra guys I see use the .2 gpm nozzle for starters, so I'm thinking .12 might not be enough.

[slava]

Originally Posted by SHiVeR-91VR4

Yes, a substantial gain will be had. You will not get ALL the power you possibly could at 20psi and race gas, but you will get most of it, as long as your turbos are big enough to hold 20psi to redline.

That's all it is, is a bandaid....and a VERY nice one. It saves 2-3 times the cost of gasoline and you get 90% of the power you could with race gas. It's a nice mod if you have big turbos and want to run 20+ psi on the street, but don't want to drain $150 worth of race gas every fillup.


My big question is still on how much is too much. I'm going to run 50/50 meth/water that I will mix, and I was thinking of getting the ~7gph ~= .12gpm nozzle. The supra guys I see use the .2 gpm nozzle for starters, so I'm thinking .12 might not be enough.

From what I understand the meth+water will affect A/F since the meth is a fuel . the alky kit controls the spray volume vs boost and not spray vs air volume it looks like one will get more than needed spray volume at low RPM and less at high RPM. Doesn't it defeat the purpose? Don't you want to spray more at high RPM?

[lightweight]

Why would you NOT feel a gain from 15-20psi...as long as you are within the turbos power range, the air will be cooler, which in turn creates more power. It has been my own finding as well as others, that injecting higher concentrations of alcohol as compared to water can produce more power. This is due to the fact alcohol BURNS and water STEAMS. They both offer detonation control, but the higher octane produced by alcohol, allows for far superior horsepower production.

Originally Posted by twiceblown

Do you feel a substantial gain in power from 15psi without water injection vs. 20psi with?

I still think that if you gain say 17hp/psi without w/m, that # will drop if you require it to run increased boost. yes, you'll be making more HP than without it, but doesn't this seems like a tuning bandaid rather to anyone else (and not just w/m, but propane, too)?

From what i learned while i was working along side some Japanese supertuners at my previous place of employment, none of them use w/m injection, or any other knock supression tool for that matter, only tuning. Proper products, boost, timing, and a/f all in concert to play a fantastic tune to the order of the best feeling car, not necessarily the fastest or highest HP# posting car.

[SHiVeR-91VR4]

Originally Posted by slava

From what I understand the meth+water will affect A/F since the meth is a fuel . the alky kit controls the spray volume vs boost and not spray vs air volume it looks like one will get more than needed spray volume at low RPM and less at high RPM. Doesn't it defeat the purpose? Don't you want to spray more at high RPM?

if you're not using a variable controller (controlling off map ecu) then you cant get all this. With the AEM you can setup an additional injector to do it as well, and give it a duty cycle to actually give more as you get higher boost.

[slava]

Originally Posted by SHiVeR-91VR4

if you're not using a variable controller (controlling off map ecu) then you cant get all this. With the AEM you can setup an additional injector to do it as well, and give it a duty cycle to actually give more as you get higher boost.

That is exactly what i am saying boost NOT equal volume.
The only way to setup AEM to do duty is to use boostcontroller function or possible VTEC.
But sounds too good, 50% duty = 50%spray ...but I am sure it is not.
Does anybody have the table Duty vs spray volume? it is not linear .
or duty vs pump presure vs spray volume. Those things are important to correctly measure the amout of spray. I hope our vendors can provide some information.
What is good about variable controller if i do not know how much meth i am spraying vs pump duty cycle. That also would change with different nozzle size.

[Mammoth gt]

660cc fuel injectors here and absolutely NO bog. Matt M. or Dan L. should be able to tell us what size nozzle comes with the kit that Matt is selling. And if I remember correctly the w/m controller is set to come on full at 8psi of boost on my car. DR could look at my car to double check that.