Alcohol vs. Nitrous vs. Propane vs. Water

[Mammoth gt]

I look at it as simply as this. If you can turn up the boost by cooling down your system, without knock, then you are adding power to your car. Even just a few psi.

[Import Power]

Originally Posted by Mammoth gt

I look at it as simply as this. If you can turn up the boost by cooling down your system, without knock, then you are adding power to your car. Even just a few psi.

exactly

more PSI means more power if it is done without knock.
Knock makes the ECU pull timing.
20psi on pump most will get knock-ECU pulls timing but with alky or propane knock is eliminated which means 20psi no knock-more timing-more power.

And water/alky cools the intake charge which means more power.

[dlabonte]

Originally Posted by Import Power

exactly

more PSI means more power if it is done without knock.
Knock makes the ECU pull timing.
20psi on pump most will get knock-ECU pulls timing but with alky or propane knock is eliminated which means 20psi no knock-more timing-more power.

And water/alky cools the intake charge which means more power.

Agreed, what IPO said.

Note that if you inject to much water/alky you will loose power as you start to quence the combustion flame. During my testing with a G-tech when I was adjusting the tune, I could loose 20hp between runs with to much injection. I know G-tech is not as accurate as dyno, but I did three runs at each setting to confirm readings.

Tell you what, I will sell sceptics a Snow Performance Stage II W/M kit and will put it in writting that if you do not make more hp I will buy it back.

Dan Labonte

[mjannusch]

Originally Posted by dlabonte

Tell you what, I will sell sceptics a Snow Performance Stage II W/M kit and will put it in writting that if you do not make more hp I will buy it back.

So nobody has with/without dyno sheets or back-to-back track results?

[fastmax]

So far you're all just repeating anecdotal information --- Matt asked if anyone has run tests to determine the actual improvement not whether you or someone else thinks it should or shouldn't.

Jim Berry

[dlabonte]

Originally Posted by fastmax

So far you're all just repeating anecdotal information --- Matt asked if anyone has run tests to determine the actual improvement not whether you or someone else thinks it should or shouldn't.

Jim Berry

Follow the link and read on:

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0407mm_snow/

dyno chart on bottom of page.

Best regards,

Dan Labonte

[SHiVeR-91VR4]

What was the point when you reached too much?
How much is too little?

I'm trying to find out how much I need for how much HP I have.
Is there a sized nozzle you get with the kit, or is it one fits all type thing?

[mjannusch]

Originally Posted by dlabonte

Follow the link and read on:

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0407mm_snow/

dyno chart on bottom of page.

Okay, so a non-intercooled blown car picked up 80 hp by running water/methanol, as well as leaning the A/F ratio from 12.2:1 to 12.5:1.

1) Reducing charge temps. A fairly accepted general guide to intake temp's effect on power production is an 11 degree F drop in intake temp will result in about a 1% increase in horsepower. The car is running a blower at 15 psi output pressure, and no intercooling - so the "before" intake temp is probably pretty high. Let's stay to the low side and call it 230 degrees F.

How much does the spray reduce the intake charge temps? Down to 150 F? That would be a 7.3% increase in power output which would bump it to 529 horsepower. Down to 120F = 542hp. Let's say it is as effective as my intercooler and will keep intake charges below 100F, so at 100F = 551HP.

2) Increasing boost. Boost increased by 2 psi over the baseline pull. This could've easily been accomplished by using an intercooler instead of the spray by drastically reducing the intake temps. In the worst-case scenario for the injected intercooling we were around 542hp. In order to end up at 571hp, 2 psi of boost only needs to pick up 29hp. My car picks up about 17HP per psi of boost, on only a 3.1L motor versus the test car's 5.0L motor.

3) Leaning the mixture. 12.2:1 is richer than 12.5:1. Probably not a large swing in power, but there's going to be something there.

Do you see what I'm getting at.... There aren't any straight-up comparison numbers. In EVERY test that I've seen, there are additional variables thrown in. (Go from no intercooling, to spray charge cooling - lean the mixture - raise the boost).

What happens on a car that's already set up properly with decent charge cooling? Do you still pick up power? How much?

ie: does this Measurably help on a 3/S car where you are using it primarily to reduce knock so you can increase boost.

[twiceblown]

SMC's website specifically states that it does not increase HP. I've always assumed that w/m injection's purpose was for those cars on the ragged edge, where they want more power out of less quality fuels. Run a well tuned car at 15PSi without w/m then with, and you will likely see a loss in HP due to the absorption of latent heat within the combustion event to convert the water to vapor. That is heat that should have been used to expand the combustion byproducts to produce power.

Now if you have the same car at 15psi where it shows a 25 knock count and pulls 15º of timing without w/m, then you will certainly pick up HP by quenching the knock and increasing the timing with w/m.

I see it like adding race gas to a well tuned pump gas car (or premium to a car that runs on regular). No gains in HP until you've encroached the boundaries of the fuel you're using.

I also think most people likely spray too much water/methanol but that's just based on anecdotal hearsay.
Damon

[dlabonte]

I think we are all saying the samething here. Adding W/M or Propane allows you to run more boost, more timing, then you could with pump gas. This leads to more power and cooler EGTs. These systems are like octane on demand so you do not have to run race gas while waiting at the stop light.

An intercooler can also be used, but then you get a drop in pressure across it.

Yes running to much W/M can results in a loss of power. Way to much and engine will bog.

Dan