Big brake kit, need some opinions - Page 2 - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center

bluemax_1 · 07-10-2006, 01:46 PM

lethal,

you're right that Stoptech doesn't necessarily do track testing with each platform, but I've read up on the tests they do on the individual platforms while they're developing/customizing their brakes for the platform and the testing, although simple, achieves the purpose which is to optimize the brake balance bias for front and rear. The track testing data that they gather is to provide more information on things like heat management, rotor wear, caliper fatigue, etc. to see if there are any potential problems from consistent track abuse of their brakes.

prerunner,

keep in mind that in most cases, there is only ONE real reason for getting a BBK (other than aesthetics), and that is thermal management. Although a larger rotor can potentially lead to greater braking torque at that axle, due to the caliper being mounted further from the rotational axis (therefore increasing torque, if all else is the same), if this changes the brake bias to sub-optimal, then you're losing out. The Stoptech's might decrease braking distances (getting stickier tires and/or stickier pads will see a more significant change) but The MAIN reason for larger rotors is because rotors are heatsinks.

Brakes function by converting kinetic energy to heat by way of friction. Any given rotor has a thermal limit. Once you reach this limit, the rotors cannot easily absorb additional heat, and every consecutive braking event increases the rotor (and pad's) temperature significantly. Since all pads have a MOT (maximum operating temperature), once the temp exceeds this, you experience pad fade, and you can't stop. The more heat your rotors can absorb/dissipate, the more resistant they are to heat induced fade at the track or under hard use.

However when it comes to braking torque, if you can lock up your wheels with your brakes, they generate more than enough brake torque for the tires you're using. If you want to increase ONLY braking torque (say, after you get grippier tires), then the easiest thing to do is get brake pads with a higher Mu (friction coefficient). The reason to get a bigger brake kit with bigger rotors is because the larger rotors can accept more heat to withstand repeated hard braking.

Also, given 2 equal setups, the rotor with more mass has a better thermal capacity. But not all rotors are created equal. Thermal capacity is one thing, heat dissipation is another thing. If you believe Stoptech, their rotors have better heat dissipation than any others due to the design of their rotors, hats and calipers. What impressed me was some pics of the rotors they used on a BMW in an endurance race. Where other teams changed their rotors at least once in the race, the team with Stoptechs used the same rotors throughout and they were still good.

Like I said, the only real reason to get something like the ST 355mm kit is if you plan to push your car hard at the track. For occasional track use, folks have found that some simple upgrades have provided good bang for the buck. Things like:
Porterfield cryo rotors
Neo Super Dot, Motul RBF 600 or ATE fluid
Dedicated track (higher MOT) pads
Do-it-yourself brake ducts to improve brake rotor/system cooling.
Stainless lines

Those simple upgrades have been fairly effective on shorter, slower tracks, but if you start generating much more HP or get on longer tracks where you can develop more speed (or you simply want to push as hard as you can without worrying about babying your brakes), then it's time for a BBK.

Max

PS. forgot to mention something about wheels. Yep, they're big kits. The Stoptech 355mm will fit in stock 18" TT wheels though because the ST calipers actually take up less depth than the stock Sumitomo calipers On the same wheels, My Stoptechs have about 3-4 mm MORE depth clearance (clearance from the spokes) than the stockers. But the 355mm kit needs at least 18" wheels to fit. I don't think ANY 17" will fit, but any 18" wheels that clear the stock 2G TT calipers AND don't have odd spokes that curve in when they're near the rim, or have odd diametric reductions in the rim (Enkei RPF1 18x9.5 et+38mm have both those making them unusable) they should fit the Stoptech kit. No idea about the Brembos and clearance.

bluemax_1 · 07-10-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lethal_vr4

BTW Fastmax you bought the four wheel kit right? or just the fronts?

There IS a Fastmax on 3si, but I assume you were addressing me?

No, I only have the 355mm fronts at the moment. Hope to make it to the RA trip in October, and if I do, I'll try to remember to bring the damn paint along so I can see what temps my rotors/pads are hitting. I figure that will give me a much better gauge for what pads I should get for the track front and rear and whether the stock rear setup is up to the task. I think bjmsam from UK is using the 4-wheel ST setup and said he found his stock rears inadequate. So far, the stock rears held up OK at Gingerman, but I need to try them on a faster track to see if they still hold up (that and I wasn't using R-compounds. I was on 265 Yoko Neovas. Very impressive limits for a street tire).

I guess I don't really want to spend $2k on the rear brakes until and unless I know the stockers can't cope. Bling factor = 0 appeal for me.

BTW, what track pads are you using and what street pads?

Max

lethal_vr4 · 07-10-2006, 02:41 PM

Drat.. sometimes my brain works faster then my fingers..

I run Carbotech Bobcats on the street... and a Carbotech Panther Plus pads on the track. It would be great to see you up at RA in October... I'll be there sans the car this year... *sigh* .... but us usual crew of miscreants (3sracers) will be there.

PS I have an rotor upgrade for sale if you are interested in that prerunner.
http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=330119

bluemax_1 · 07-10-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lethal_vr4

Drat.. sometimes my brain works faster then my fingers..

I run Carbotech Bobcats on the street... and a Carbotech Panther Plus pads on the track. It would be great to see you up at RA in October... I'll be there sans the car this year... *sigh* .... but us usual crew of miscreants (3sracers) will be there.

PS I have an rotor upgrade for sale if you are interested in that prerunner.
http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=330119

Oh, what's going on with your car? yeah, hope I get the car in shape to run at RA in time, otherwise I won't be there. Bit of a drive to RA for me and going all the way there but not running would be like putting a fix in front of a crack addict and not letting them touch it.

BTW, are the Bobcats quiet on the street? I've been a little lazy replacing my Panther Plus pads and they work fine on the street but dust like crazy and squeal like a stuck pig (car is my daily driver, that's why it needs to be 100% for RA. I don't have a trailer). The Panther Plus don't sem to like being used gently. I'm still trying to find a source for Ferodo DS2500 for the stock 2G rears (want to try them both front and rear). Heard good things about those pads, along with their DS3000 for R-compounds.

Max

Storm Strike · 07-10-2006, 07:49 PM

Using the ST 332 front BBK, upgraded to 2G stock rear calipers, and got SCE's ST upgraded, larger diameter rear rotor for use with stock 2G calipers. Only did one track day on them, but never had any fade.

VR4GUY · 07-11-2006, 12:46 AM

Another vote for the stoptech kit (in 355x35mm). It has handled half a dozen hard track sessions at Road America and Gingerman with no fade at all. The only problem now is the guy behind me that is following to close for his brakes

.

lethal_vr4 · 07-11-2006, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemax_1

Oh, what's going on with your car?

BTW, are the Bobcats quiet on the street? I've been a little lazy replacing my Panther Plus pads and they work fine on the street but dust like crazy and squeal like a stuck pig (car is my daily driver, that's why it needs to be 100% for RA. I don't have a trailer). The Panther Plus don't sem to like being used gently. I'm still trying to find a source for Ferodo DS2500 for the stock 2G rears (want to try them both front and rear). Heard good things about those pads, along with their DS3000 for R-compounds.

Max

Max, I had a piston ring let go last year. After tearing down the block and getting screwed over by my engine rebuilder, I have to start from scratch. I decided to do the bigger house mod, so the car will have to wait until the money tree blooms again (or I sell my old house.. two mortagages is painfull).

I love the Bobcats on the street. They are quite and they do not dust very much at all... but admittadly I put very few street miles on them. I've been running Porterfield R4 pads in the rear mainly because they wear like iron, once I go through the rear pads I have I will look for something much more agressive.

I absolutly hate the street pads that came with Jessica's StopTech's. They are squeal free but dust like no other pad I have seen... as soon as they are gone it will be Bobcats replacements.

Storm Strike: when you upgraded to 2nd gen rears did you loose the parking brake or anything tricky?

bluemax_1 · 07-11-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VR4GUY

Another vote for the stoptech kit (in 355x35mm). It has handled half a dozen hard track sessions at Road America and Gingerman with no fade at all. The only problem now is the guy behind me that is following to close for his brakes

.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Witht the Stoptechs and the neovas. I know I can stop quicker than 99% of anything out there. And friends ask why I still leave as much room in front of me when I'm in traffic. I have to tell them, "It's not for my car, it's for the guy behind me". Leaving the gap behind me has saved my car from being rear-ended twice. Once in the dry and once in the wet.

Same scenario both times. The car in front slams on their brakes for some reason, I hit my brakes (don't even have to stomp on the pedal for the car to slow down fast) and I'm looking in the rearview mirror at the guy behind me and see them lockup and know they won't stop in time so I let off the brake pedal and roll ahead in the gap I've left in front of me so the idiot behind doesn't slam into me.

I don't care what they drive and whether it takes 30 feet or 300 feet to stop from 30mph, know how your damn car performs (or doesn't) and drive to suit! Why can't people get that?

BTW, what pads did you run at RA and how fast were you going on the front straight before entering the braking zone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lethal_vr4

Max, I had a piston ring let go last year. After tearing down the block and getting screwed over by my engine rebuilder, I have to start from scratch. I decided to do the bigger house mod, so the car will have to wait until the money tree blooms again (or I sell my old house.. two mortagages is painfull).

I love the Bobcats on the street. They are quite and they do not dust very much at all... but admittadly I put very few street miles on them. I've been running Porterfield R4 pads in the rear mainly because they wear like iron, once I go through the rear pads I have I will look for something much more agressive.

I absolutly hate the street pads that came with Jessica's StopTech's. They are squeal free but dust like no other pad I have seen... as soon as they are gone it will be Bobcats replacements.

Storm Strike: when you upgraded to 2nd gen rears did you loose the parking brake or anything tricky?

Piston ring, ouch. How'd you do that? Detonation? Sorry to hear that though. hopefully you'll have her up and running fine again soon. As for the stock ST pads, you must be talking about the Axxis Ultimates. Heard a few negative opinions about them. Seems they might be decent for light cars, which ours obviously aren't.

Max

lethal_vr4 · 07-11-2006, 12:44 PM

Ah yes.. Axxis Ultimates (maybe ultimate dusting pad).

I was hitting approx 145 in turns 1,5, and my nemisis 12 (over 118 by the kink, turn 11, forth gear... after several close calls on 12 I started limiting my entry/approach speed)with the Carbotech Panther Plus XP pads. RA is VERY fast and as such hard on brakes... I alway bring a backup set of rotors and pads (and plenty of Motul).

I blame the busted piston ring on my two-stepping and 6k drag launches on boost. Damn drag racing! I'm sticking to circuit racing!

Your going to love RA.. I really hope to see you there.

lethal_vr4 · 07-11-2006, 01:04 PM

Ah yes.. Axxis Ultimates (maybe ultimate dusting pad).

I was hitting approx 145 in turns 1,5, and my nemisis 12 (over 118 by the kink, turn 11, forth gear... after several close calls on 12 I started limiting my entry/approach speed)with the Carbotech Panther Plus XP pads. RA is VERY fast and as such hard on brakes... I alway bring a backup set of rotors and pads (and plenty of Motul).

I blame the busted piston ring on my two-stepping and 6k drag launches on boost. Damn drag racing! I'm sticking to circuit racing!

Your going to love RA.. I really hope to see you there.

07-10-2006, 01:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
bluemax_1 July 2003 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: MI Drives: '94 VR-4 Trader Rating: (16)	Re: Big brake kit, need some opinions lethal, you're right that Stoptech doesn't necessarily do track testing with each platform, but I've read up on the tests they do on the individual platforms while they're developing/customizing their brakes for the platform and the testing, although simple, achieves the purpose which is to optimize the brake balance bias for front and rear. The track testing data that they gather is to provide more information on things like heat management, rotor wear, caliper fatigue, etc. to see if there are any potential problems from consistent track abuse of their brakes. prerunner, keep in mind that in most cases, there is only ONE real reason for getting a BBK (other than aesthetics), and that is thermal management. Although a larger rotor can potentially lead to greater braking torque at that axle, due to the caliper being mounted further from the rotational axis (therefore increasing torque, if all else is the same), if this changes the brake bias to sub-optimal, then you're losing out. The Stoptech's might decrease braking distances (getting stickier tires and/or stickier pads will see a more significant change) but The MAIN reason for larger rotors is because rotors are heatsinks. Brakes function by converting kinetic energy to heat by way of friction. Any given rotor has a thermal limit. Once you reach this limit, the rotors cannot easily absorb additional heat, and every consecutive braking event increases the rotor (and pad's) temperature significantly. Since all pads have a MOT (maximum operating temperature), once the temp exceeds this, you experience pad fade, and you can't stop. The more heat your rotors can absorb/dissipate, the more resistant they are to heat induced fade at the track or under hard use. However when it comes to braking torque, if you can lock up your wheels with your brakes, they generate more than enough brake torque for the tires you're using. If you want to increase ONLY braking torque (say, after you get grippier tires), then the easiest thing to do is get brake pads with a higher Mu (friction coefficient). The reason to get a bigger brake kit with bigger rotors is because the larger rotors can accept more heat to withstand repeated hard braking. Also, given 2 equal setups, the rotor with more mass has a better thermal capacity. But not all rotors are created equal. Thermal capacity is one thing, heat dissipation is another thing. If you believe Stoptech, their rotors have better heat dissipation than any others due to the design of their rotors, hats and calipers. What impressed me was some pics of the rotors they used on a BMW in an endurance race. Where other teams changed their rotors at least once in the race, the team with Stoptechs used the same rotors throughout and they were still good. Like I said, the only real reason to get something like the ST 355mm kit is if you plan to push your car hard at the track. For occasional track use, folks have found that some simple upgrades have provided good bang for the buck. Things like: Porterfield cryo rotors Neo Super Dot, Motul RBF 600 or ATE fluid Dedicated track (higher MOT) pads Do-it-yourself brake ducts to improve brake rotor/system cooling. Stainless lines Those simple upgrades have been fairly effective on shorter, slower tracks, but if you start generating much more HP or get on longer tracks where you can develop more speed (or you simply want to push as hard as you can without worrying about babying your brakes), then it's time for a BBK. Max PS. forgot to mention something about wheels. Yep, they're big kits. The Stoptech 355mm will fit in stock 18" TT wheels though because the ST calipers actually take up less depth than the stock Sumitomo calipers On the same wheels, My Stoptechs have about 3-4 mm MORE depth clearance (clearance from the spokes) than the stockers. But the 355mm kit needs at least 18" wheels to fit. I don't think ANY 17" will fit, but any 18" wheels that clear the stock 2G TT calipers AND don't have odd spokes that curve in when they're near the rim, or have odd diametric reductions in the rim (Enkei RPF1 18x9.5 et+38mm have both those making them unusable) they should fit the Stoptech kit. No idea about the Brembos and clearance. __________________ 1994 3000GT VR-4. Hobbies... what are hobbies? Oh, those things people do when they're NOT working on their cars? Last edited by bluemax_1 : 07-10-2006 at 01:54 PM.

07-10-2006, 02:41 PM	#13 (permalink)
lethal_vr4 NG '03 6th Floor Crew Join Date: Oct 2001 Drives: 92 VR4/ 01 Lightning Trader Rating: (58)	Re: Big brake kit, need some opinions Drat.. sometimes my brain works faster then my fingers.. I run Carbotech Bobcats on the street... and a Carbotech Panther Plus pads on the track. It would be great to see you up at RA in October... I'll be there sans the car this year... sigh .... but us usual crew of miscreants (3sracers) will be there. PS I have an rotor upgrade for sale if you are interested in that prerunner. http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=330119 __________________ Web log: http://apps.blackflagracing.com/Blog/ The Armada '93 Sandstone Gray 3000GT VR-4 2006 3SI Ride of the Year 2007 All Mitsu Cookout, 1st Place 1st Gen 3/S 2008 All Mitsu Cookout, 1st Place 1st Gen 3/S '92 Fiji Blue 3000GT VR-4 2004 All Mitsu Cookout, 1st Place 1st Gen 3/S 2005 NG Quick 8 AWD Unlimited 1/4 Mile Qualifier. BLACK FLAG RACING '92 Emerald Green Pearl Stealth RT/TT 3.5L, 15Gs, AEM EMS For Sale

07-10-2006, 07:49 PM	#15 (permalink)
Storm Strike Forum Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: PA Trader Rating: (8)	Re: Big brake kit, need some opinions Using the ST 332 front BBK, upgraded to 2G stock rear calipers, and got SCE's ST upgraded, larger diameter rear rotor for use with stock 2G calipers. Only did one track day on them, but never had any fade. __________________ '92 Stealth RT/TT, Sandstorm, 125K miles Currently installed: E-MBC, SS brake lines, Motul 600 BF, FN01R-C rims, ATR DP, test pipe, and exhaust, EK2Mfg EGR blockoff plates, MAFT-Pro, S-ITC, Dejon Tool intake runners, JIC FTL-A2 struts, PST CFDS, Tial BOV, MSD 8.5mm plug wires, Accelerated Motorsports catch can, Ebay FMIC, Evo 560's, IPO dual feed fuel lines, Greddy P/W/H EGT gauge, IPO battery relocation, Optima red top, PWR radiator, DSM shifter bushings, custom WW fluid tank, Saner F/R swaybars, PLX WB O2 setup, SCE StopTech ST-40 332x33 front brake upgrade & 300mm rear rotors, SCE tender springs, SCE caster/camber plates, Titan Bending f header, 15G turbos,forged crank, Crower rods, Weisco pistons, DR Stage 2 heads, TRS seats, 5 pnt harnesses.

07-11-2006, 12:46 AM	#16 (permalink)
VR4GUY Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Italy Drives: 335i Trader Rating: (6)	Re: Big brake kit, need some opinions Another vote for the stoptech kit (in 355x35mm). It has handled half a dozen hard track sessions at Road America and Gingerman with no fade at all. The only problem now is the guy behind me that is following to close for his brakes . __________________ Authentic 1999 Pearl White VR-4 Modified

07-11-2006, 12:44 PM	#19 (permalink)
lethal_vr4 NG '03 6th Floor Crew Join Date: Oct 2001 Drives: 92 VR4/ 01 Lightning Trader Rating: (58)	Re: Big brake kit, need some opinions Ah yes.. Axxis Ultimates (maybe ultimate dusting pad). I was hitting approx 145 in turns 1,5, and my nemisis 12 (over 118 by the kink, turn 11, forth gear... after several close calls on 12 I started limiting my entry/approach speed)with the Carbotech Panther Plus XP pads. RA is VERY fast and as such hard on brakes... I alway bring a backup set of rotors and pads (and plenty of Motul). I blame the busted piston ring on my two-stepping and 6k drag launches on boost. Damn drag racing! I'm sticking to circuit racing! Your going to love RA.. I really hope to see you there.

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07-11-2006, 01:04 PM	#20 (permalink)
lethal_vr4 NG '03 6th Floor Crew Join Date: Oct 2001 Drives: 92 VR4/ 01 Lightning Trader Rating: (58)	Re: Big brake kit, need some opinions Ah yes.. Axxis Ultimates (maybe ultimate dusting pad). I was hitting approx 145 in turns 1,5, and my nemisis 12 (over 118 by the kink, turn 11, forth gear... after several close calls on 12 I started limiting my entry/approach speed)with the Carbotech Panther Plus XP pads. RA is VERY fast and as such hard on brakes... I alway bring a backup set of rotors and pads (and plenty of Motul). I blame the busted piston ring on my two-stepping and 6k drag launches on boost. Damn drag racing! I'm sticking to circuit racing! Your going to love RA.. I really hope to see you there.