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Old 03-09-2017, 12:58 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

Well in the 10+ years I've been frequenting this forum I never thought I would ever make a "my car won't start thread" but recent developments have me in a bit of a quandary and I’d like to leverage the knowledge of this fine community for some assistance.

First, the backstory. My car is a ’94 vr4 with about 85k miles on it. It has been sitting in my garage for about um…..6 years. Why so long? Because life. I got married, bought a house, moved to another state, had children etc. It all left very little room for a project car. That being said, a few months ago I was faced with the decision to either sell the car, or resurrect it. Well I chose to resurrect…and upgrade. But first I needed to deal with the fact that she was sitting.

I changed all the fluids and checked/replaced rubber hoses that needed to be changed, change filters etc. Anything having to do with a car sitting for extended periods of time. She fired right up, and I drove her around to “shake off the dust” once or twice a week for a few weeks. But I didn’t do another 60k service yet, I knew that it needed it. I was just waiting for the parts to arrive so I limited the amount I drove it around. I want to be clear on this point, the car started and drove fine up to this point.

Like most people in this community, I ordered my parts from Ninja Performance, so as expected, I had some time before it arrived. I decided to spend that time…buying more parts. So I went ahead and purchased DR-750 turbos, Injector Dynamics 725cc injectors, oohnoo’s SMIC kit, Chrome ECU, Jester’s MAF, Mishimoto Radiator/Hoses and a bunch of other little things that don’t’ really pertain to this problem as they are cosmetic pieces. Like retro-spec side-splitters and front lip, engine replacement bolt kit etc.

So I begin working the car once everything arrived. One of my old friends from this forum ( darksurfr ) was actually kind enough to drive down an assist in the build. Unfortunately during this point he noticed a crack in my front exhaust manifold and I decided to stop and purchase a new one. When that arrived I continued the putting the car back together myself. As she stands now, these are the mechanical modifications done.
  1. DR-750 turbos
  2. ID725cc injectors
  3. Chrome ECU
  4. Oohnoo’s SMIC
  5. Jester MAF w/K&N air filter
  6. Hotwired Walbro 255 Fuel Pump
  7. AEM Honda Style FPR w/fuel rail loop
  8. Devils Own Methanol injection system w/progressive controller
  9. HKS SSQ BOV
  10. Greddy Profec EBC
  11. RPS Max Street Clutch
  12. RPS Segmented Flywheel
  13. Innovate LC-1 Wideband
  14. Pre-cats are gutted
  15. 3sx downpipe
  16. IPS 3”exhaust
  17. Autometer Boost gauge.

So 1-5 are the new modifications, the rest were already installed. The outgoing parts replaced by 1-5 were 15g turbos, rc550cc injectors and an EMU w/boomslang harness and a greddy FMIC. It’s also worth mentioning that this is when the 60k was performed, I also changed my spark plug wires and plugs. New plugs gapped to .026.

Also worth noting that while performing a pressure check of the system I noticed a slight hissing sound coming from the TPS sensor. I noticed no other sounds and have already received a rebuilt Throttle Body from April but have NOT installed it yet.

Now the Chrome ECU part was new to me, but I did my research and I can successfully flash my ecu with ECU Flash and Datalog with EvoScan. I opened the bin file it came with and edited the following:
  1. Changed injector size table to ‘722’ – can’t seem to put in 725 as it just changes the value to 722
  2. Based on the ‘Slope & Offset vs. Pressure’ chart from ID725 Injectors - Injector Dynamics I changed the ‘Injector Battery Voltage Latency Compensation’ table to read:
    • 4.69 - 3.825
    • 7.98 - 1.980
    • 10.03 - 1.350
    • 12.01 - 1.035
    • 13.99 – 0.795
    • 15.97 – 0.735
    • 18.02 - .660
    I used the settings for a base fuel pressure of 43.5, but I think I may need to use 40psi. I would know for sure if I could get the car to idle of course.
  3. For the Jester MAF I left the MAF size and MAF Adder tables unchanged at 288.4 and 64 respectively. But I did change the MAF Smoothing Table to the recommended values on the product page to:
    • 25 – 100
    • 50 – 100
    • 75 – 100
    • 100 – 100
    • 125 – 100
    • 150 – 100
    • 175 – 100
    • 200 – 100
    • 225 – 100
    • 250 – 100
    • 275 – 100
    • 300 – 100
    • 400 – 100
    • 500 – 100
    • 750 – 100
    • 1000 – 100
    • 1500 – 100
    • 2000 – 100
    • 2500 – 100
    • 3000 – 100
    • 4000 – 100
  4. I then edited the Periphery2 table and disabled the following:
    • bit.15 P0443 P0446 P0403 P1104 P1105 Solenoids Test
    • bit.14 P0450 Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor Test
    • bit.13 P0442 Evap Incorrect Purge Flow Test
    • bit.11 P0135 P0141 P0155 P0161 O2 Heater Test
    • bit.10 P1400 MAP Sensor Test
    • bit.09 P0403 EGR Solenoid Test
    • bit.03 P0136 P0156 Front Rear Secondary O2 Sensor
    • bit.01 P0421 P0431 Warmup Pre-cats Efficency Low
    • I also changed the Wideband / Map scaling to the values given from my manufacturer.
I’ve made no other changes to the .bin file other than what I have just detailed. I saved it as a different file and flashed my ecu. And the car wouldn’t start.

To be more specific, it cranks, then sounds like it fires for a second, then dies. Hmm, ok. So this is what I have done so far.
  1. Checked to make sure my crank sensor was plugged in.
  2. I verified that I have fuel. When cranking the engine my Fuel Pressure gauge reads 40psi at the rails.
  3. I then pulled each spark plug wire off of each ignition coil to verify that spark was getting to the plugs. They are.
  4. I then checked my Fuel Pressure relay as I was not able to recall if I ever did the bypass mod on it. The bypass was not done, so I did it. Still no change.
  5. I then pulled the front three plugs, double checked the gap, wiped off some of the dielectric grease thinking maybe I was too liberal with it. No change.
  6. I then unplugged the MAF and it started and idled in limp mode. It didn’t feel as though it was idling “rough” but OMFG rich.
    Ok I said, I guess my Jester MAF is faulty. So I removed it, reinstalled the stock MAF and re-flashed the MAF Smoothing table back to stock then started the car again. The car started and ran! For like 5 seconds then it died. Sigh.
  7. I then went back to my laptop and opened the original bin file with absolutely no changes to it and altered only the injector size and flashed my ecu. Trying to see if maybe I made an error in ECUFlash, the car still didn’t start. Same symptoms.
  8. Rotated the crankshaft and checked timing marks, all spot on.
  9. Performed the Fuel Injector Resistor Bypass by cutting all the wires and capping them together.

Evoscan is not showing any codes. Guys, I’m rapidly running out of ideas at this point. Tonight I’m going to check to make sure the timing marks line up but I had a very experienced person do my 60k so I’m not banking on that. I also would like it if someone can confirm my injector settings? I made some assumptions there but confirmed it with another experienced forum member here.

I’ve been hesitant to install the rebuilt TB since this all happened as I didn’t want to add yet another variable to this mess. I considered checking the resistance on the IAC but a faulty IAC would give me a high idle wouldn’t it?

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read this lengthy post, I wanted to be as thorough as possible. I have a video I will post to youtube tonight and add to this thread. If anyone has any insight or can provide any ideas of other things to check it would be most welcome. I would really like to have matter settled before ECG.

Also, since I sincerely feel that people should be rewarded and compensated for their time/efforts. I’d like to offer a $100 ‘Thank You’ to whomever on this thread is first to correctly diagnose and solve this issue. Payable via Paypal upon the car actually starting.

Thanks again everyone!



TL : DR

Car won't start.
I have fuel pressure and I have spark, timing is spot on.
I suspect it's my tune in chrome. Need someone to double-check my injector settings.
Attached Files
File Type: zip bin_file.zip (65.6 KB, 16 views)
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Last edited by activeSeven; 03-19-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

Yeah these are always a little difficult.

A little hindsight disclaimer (not that it matters at this point), but I always advocate smallest changes possible. When you add everything at once, you get in to scenarios like this. I would have started with chrome, then maf, then injectors, then turbos.

Honestly if you can't pinpoint it, that would be my suggestion. Go back, get it running. Do one mod at a time.


I think you should finish your basic checks. You did spark and fuel, now just complete the loop and verify timing and compression.

I would also be checking for major boost leaks. You said you noticed hissing, just do a boost leak test, you need to anyway. Just another thing to eliminate.

You also have the EMU still? If you are familiar with that, you could try to get it running that way.

My first suspicion is something incorrect with the injector scaling. After you complete the basic checks I would highly scrutinize your settings for the injectors
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3krazygt View Post
Yeah these are always a little difficult.

A little hindsight disclaimer (not that it matters at this point), but I always advocate smallest changes possible. When you add everything at once, you get in to scenarios like this.
Without a doubt, I normally advocate for one change at a time myself. But this time I didn't follow what I preached. So of course Mr. Murphy payed me a visit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3krazygt View Post
...now just complete the loop and verify timing and compression.
yup, going to check timing marks tonight after work

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3krazygt View Post
I would also be checking for major boost leaks. You said you noticed hissing, just do a boost leak test, you need to anyway. Just another thing to eliminate.
I heard hissing while performing the boost leak check. Haven't installed April's rebuild TB yet as i don't want to add more variables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3krazygt View Post
You also have the EMU still? If you are familiar with that, you could try to get it running that way.
Negative, everything I removed has already been sold off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3krazygt View Post
My first suspicion is something incorrect with the injector scaling. After you complete the basic checks I would highly scrutinize your settings for the injectors
Yeah that's where I'm leaning myself. Was hoping someone could double check the data on the injector dynamics page and make sure I read it correctly and altered the tables in chrome correct as well. This is the one part that I am iffy about.

Surely I'm not the only one using ID725's with Chrome?
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Old 03-09-2017, 02:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by activeSeven View Post
Surely I'm not the only one using ID725's with Chrome?
No likely not. You may be trying to dial in to quickly. I think you may want to start with your scaling a bit lower and run a bit rich and I think you want to start in open loop. You should be able to set some of the bits to force your car into open loop. Reset your ecu and see if you can start dialing the car in small adjustments at at time. I wouldn't just match your scaling to the injectors and call it good.

Either way, I still think you have to complete your basic checks, be confident in that. Then get the car in open loop and see if you can get the car limping rich and dial in.

Last edited by 3krazygt; 03-09-2017 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 03-09-2017, 02:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

So, just wanted to add to this while I sit here at work. I noticed that I actually took some logs with EVOScan a few times. While I don't know which logs correlate to when the car was running with what MAF, I did notice that every single log shows the Coolant Temp Sensor at -59.

This...can't be right. Either way, I intend on checking the sensor as recommended here tonight. Also going to recheck my vacuum lines, make sure they are all routed correctly.

Last edited by activeSeven; 03-09-2017 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

Just checked timing marks, they're all spot on.
Will edit main post.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

Just to add my experience. I also had similar issues when I went chrome and larger injectors. granted I'm only at EVO 560's, I had a hell of a time getting it to initially run right which ws all due to injector scaling and latency. All of the Latency figures I found online caused issues with the car running. Lean/Rich/O2's not cycling, Etc. The big thing was the latencies. I worked with jester and we ended up using the values I found and multiplying the values by 0.8 until we could get the friggin O2's the actually cycle which they finally did and the end values were nowhere close to the start values. My Injector scaling is sitting at something like 490cc right now also.

Honestly it is going to be too hard to diagnose without some sort of log file.

Trying bumping your injector scaling up to like 600cc and see if it starts with the stock MAF.

Also be sure that when to changed back to the stock MAF you disconnect the battery for like 20 seconds to clear out the trims.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

If the car ran for seconds I bet those trims have not moved. Either you are reading the coolant temp sensor wrong in the logger or yours has gone faulty causing the engine to dump a ton of fuel making it too rich to run. Honestly it's a cheap sensor I would just replace it anyways. Otherwise if this is all fine your tune is just way off. If you have spark and fuel then it means your values of one or the other is off. You didn't mention adjusting timing so I would count that out. Quickest way to check if you're too rich or lean when starting is try and start it then pull a front plug. If it's soaked in fuel you're too rich and you need to pull it out. Also if you soak your plugs it's going to be hard to start unless you either change plugs or 0 out your injector constant and crank it. That way it will start and run. Then change your fueling accordingly. Hope all this helps.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo3000 View Post
Just to add my experience. I also had similar issues when I went chrome and larger injectors. granted I'm only at EVO 560's, I had a hell of a time getting it to initially run right which ws all due to injector scaling and latency. All of the Latency figures I found online caused issues with the car running. Lean/Rich/O2's not cycling, Etc. The big thing was the latencies. I worked with jester and we ended up using the values I found and multiplying the values by 0.8 until we could get the friggin O2's the actually cycle which they finally did and the end values were nowhere close to the start values. My Injector scaling is sitting at something like 490cc right now also.
I'm sorry that you had the issues you describe, but also relieved as well. I'm inclined to agree that it must have something to do with the injector settings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo3000 View Post
Honestly it is going to be too hard to diagnose without some sort of log file.
It's funny you said that, because I literally just came back in from the garage after taking some logs to post to this thread lol.

Attached are two log files. Both are using the Jester MAF. The first log is with the MAF connected, I tried to crank it a few times but it never started. The second log is with the MAF disconnected. It should be noted that I flashed the ecu after I cut every value in the "Warm-up enrichment vs Load" table by half but she still didn't idle with the MAF connected. She idled a bit in limp mode then I shut her down.

What I do notice is that the Coolant temp sensor is showing -59 on all the logs. So as soon as I'm done typing this reply I'm going to go out and pull the sensor to test it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo3000 View Post
Trying bumping your injector scaling up to like 600cc and see if it starts with the stock MAF.

Also be sure that when to changed back to the stock MAF you disconnect the battery for like 20 seconds to clear out the trims.
Will do, thanks for the advise! Also thanks for reminding me about disconnecting the battery lol.
Attached Files
File Type: csv MAF-DISCONNECTED.csv (55.0 KB, 12 views)
File Type: zip JesterMafWithLessWarmEnrichment.zip (65.6 KB, 10 views)
File Type: csv MAF-CONNECTED.csv (22.6 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by activeSeven; 03-09-2017 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:19 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Why won't my car start? Reward inside :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipershark11 View Post
Either you are reading the coolant temp sensor wrong in the logger or yours has gone faulty causing the engine to dump a ton of fuel making it too rich to run.
I've considered that the logger may be wrong. This is my first time using EvoScan unfortunately so I'm at a loss. That being said, here is what I see:

In the main EvoScan window where you can "check" what you want to log, the entry for Coolant Temp reads:

Display: Coolant Temp
Request: 07
Function: x
Reading:
units: deg C

If I R-Click it, then select "Edit Data Items" I can see the following:
Display: Coolant Temp
LogReference: Coolant Temp
RequestID: 07
Eval: x*1.593+38
Unit: deg F
MetricEval: x
MetricUnit: deg C
Response Bytes: 1
GaugeMin: 0
GaugeMax: 255
ChartMin: 0
ChartMax: 190
ScalingFactor: 1
LogHide: false

I never messed with any of these values so they are set to whatever the data settings are in the xml file. I have no idea if they are correct or not.
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