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VR-4 hardly starts

3K views 42 replies 7 participants last post by  pwhite2012 
#1 · (Edited)
So, I finished dropping the engine back in my VR-4 from having the heads off for a valve job. I went to start it up and it takes a bit longer than usual to start and cranks a little bit slower than normal. When it does catch, it either fires off a few times and dies or does one quick rev to ~1500 rpms and dies. I was able to get it to stay on for a bit by giving it some gas, but it ran really rough and low, even with 50-75% throttle. It did this for several seconds, then it revved to around ~3500-4000 rpms really quickly. I had my hand on the key and scared the piss out of me, so I shut it off out of instinct. Things of note:

-I checked the timing and it was on every mark before I dropped it in
-I had an issue with the car trying to start itself when the battery was connected, but it was resolved. I only attached one of the wires by the starter and missed the smaller one. Trying to find out the problem caused me to flood the engine, so I pulled the front plugs and let it sit over night. No change, so I replaced the plugs. Still no change.
-I have a couple connecters that I'm not sure of what they connect to. There is no other connecter anywhere near that I can find. One is below the passenger headlight. The other is near the power steering pump.
-OEM MLS headgaskets were used. No milling was done as the machine shop said the heads looked fine. A scraper was used to remove the old gaskets residue. It was about the smoothest thing I've ever felt before I put the gasket on.
-Whenever it turns on, the garage gets very smoky and there is a very burnt smell. I can't see any origin for the smoke. It's just smoky all over.

That's all I can think off the top of my head. Any other questions, just ask. Any help would be great. I'm tired of not being able to drive her. :(
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Yup. I checked those several times. I really thought it was a problem with the spark plugs or something along those lines, so I made sure they were right.

Another thing of note - coolant is slowly dripping down the driver side by the oil pan. I can't tell where exactly from, but the bead is on the underside of the oil pan, very close to the oil filter. I don't believe there should be any coolant over there except in the heads/block. I hope that doesn't mean the gasket didn't seal... Of course, I got a little overzealous filling the coolant and ended up getting coolant everywhere, though this is the only "bead" that is steadily dripping.
 
#4 ·
#5 ·
I will check the front cams in the morning. As for the rear cams, it's a 91. Since the CAS is on the head, and the notches are in one of the cams for it, isn't it impossible for those to be installed backwards? Or, at least the one the CAS is attached to (I can't remember if it's exhaust or intake). I suppose the other rear cam could have been swapped out with any of the other cams, or is it not possible for a rear cam to fit in the front head?
 
#6 ·
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#7 ·
I would track down that coolant leak. It's possible it's a headgasket leak, I don't think there is much else that would be leaking coolant. Also, if you have to rip apart that end of the engine it will give you a chance to check your timing again and make sure that it's on.

Can you take pictures of the plugs? Is the one under the passenger headlight for the Acitve Aero, if you don't have yours anymore?
 
#8 ·
It's not the active aero plug. I've taped up the plug, so I know which one that is for sure. That's not it. I'll go take some pics of the plugs in question.
 
#9 ·
Here's the pictures of the two plugs.
 

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#10 ·
I checked the front cams and they are in the correct spots. The timing is also still on as far as the front cams. I imagine the rear cams are also still in time, though I haven't physically checked. It doesn't sound out of time for the few seconds it is on, though. Any other suggestions? Anybody know about those plugs? A leaky headgasket wouldn't cause these problems, would it? I know people have their cars running before they notice the leak, so I wouldn't think that was the problem.
 
#11 ·
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#12 ·
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#13 ·
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#14 ·
:bump: Any ideas at all would be appreciated...
 
#15 ·
:bump: Anything would help...
 
#16 ·
The plugs on the driver side look like the ones that either plug into the fuse box or the Dryer for the AC.

The ones by the coolant overflow tank, I think goes to the fans on the radiator.

Do you have a photo of the CAS installed? If it is in backwards, that would be a problem.
 
#17 ·
Sorry for being gone for so long. It's been nearly impossible to mess with the car with work and the girlfriend being home for Christmas Break. I finally got to check on the CAS. I totally forgot to tighten the mounting bolt, so ignition was retarded? as far as it can be. Put that back together and started to car. It starts much easier, but it still dies. It seems to want to stay on more than it did before, if that makes any sense. Since it won't stay on, I can't check ignition timing, so I just set it in the middle. I think that's probably fairly close. I still have a white smoke, but it's no longer coming from the engine bay. It now clearly comes out of the exhaust. I would say it's coolant, but sweet is not even remotely close to the way I'd describe the smell. It's very burnt smelling and just smells awful. I decided to check compression in the front 3 cylinders. I got 150 across the board on a cold motor. I would do a leak down, but I don't have a compressor. I'll see about borrowing one from a friend soon, though. Anybody have some thoughts about the smoke/smell? I'm not sure what more could be wrong.
 
#18 · (Edited)
So, I finished dropping the engine back in my VR-4 from having the heads off for a valve job. No milling was done as the machine shop said the heads looked fine. Whenever it turns on, the garage gets very smoky and there is a very burnt smell. I can't see any origin for the smoke. It's just smoky all over.(
Well, you need a timing light. I think you can get one for around $20. I think I would suggest taking a punch or chisel and marking the CAS after you get it timed properly so that you will have a reference point should you ever have to mess with it again.

Second, how did they check your head for flatness? Aluminium heads 9 times out of ten need to be surfaced any time they are removed due to warping. If you are still seeing smoke, I am pretty sure that your head gasket is leaking due to the lack of proper head preparation. ALWAYS MILL YOUR HEADS WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN REMOVED (after they have been used on the car obviously) It could be a cracked block if the engine overheated at one time. You must also check the block for flatness.

You can rent a tester that uses a chemical and mounts to the radiator cap. If it changes color, you have a leak. Bubbles in the radiator fluid are also an indication of a leak.

There is a slight chance that your coolant tube did not seal properly and water is seeping through the intake manifold gasket. Not likely if you just replaced it and it was properly torqued down. Eventually the engine valley would fill up with coolant\water and spill over the sides of the engine.
 

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#19 ·
Well, it's what I kinda already knew, but didn't want to admit to it. I'm going to see about borrowing the compressor from a friend soon. I'll check the front and rear heads. Hopefully, only the front head is having problems. I'm sure it isn't the case with my luck, but I can always hope. Another question I'm having trouble finding an answer to... Assuming my rear head sealed properly, can I only mill the front head? I know that it would change the compression ratio, but if they only take off a few thousandths of an inch, I can't imagine it would change it enough to really make a difference. If I have to remove both, I have no problems. I'd just rather not mess with that rear head if it's not necessary. It looks awful, and I plan on doing it in the car this time. Also, do the heads have to be disassembled to be milled, or is it a quick and cheap thing? What about the block? If it's not within spec for flatness, I have to pull it out and take it to get machined? One last thing. How much of a pain is it to pull these heads in the car? When pulling the engine, the only times things were a pain was pulling the transfer case and half shafts apart. Otherwise, everything was a breeze.
 
#20 ·
Well, it's what I kinda already knew, but didn't want to admit to it. I'm going to see about borrowing the compressor from a friend soon. I'll check the front and rear heads. Hopefully, only the front head is having problems. I'm sure it isn't the case with my luck, but I can always hope. Another question I'm having trouble finding an answer to... Assuming my rear head sealed properly, can I only mill the front head?
Yes.

Also, do the heads have to be disassembled to be milled, or is it a quick and cheap thing?
It is best to disassemble because you do not want shaving going into the lash adjusters or rocker arms. The smallest of particles can cause real damage.


What about the block? If it's not within spec for flatness, I have to pull it out and take it to get machined?
Yes, although far less likely to be out of spec. But always good to check. You do not want to have to do all this work over again, I am sure.

One last thing. How much of a pain is it to pull these heads in the car?
If it were me, I would pull the engine and trans together. In the long run, there will be far more room to work and far less swearing in between.
 
#21 ·
Yeah, I pulled the engine the first time I did it. The main reasons I'd like to do it in the car this time is I don't own the lift, it was borrowed from my girlfriend's dad's friend, the only parts that were a pain were the big things underneath the engine, they took at least twice as long as getting it to the point were the heads could just about come out, and I don't want to buy more transmission fluid and power steering fluid.

I have pretty small hands, so small spaces aren't really a problem. Doing the timing belt, I felt like I had tons of room. The only thing I see being a problem is the rear exhaust manifold, but the nuts haven't had a chance to get difficult to work with from heating up. Besides, I thought you could just pull the heads and manifolds together.

Also, can the head gaskets be reused? I know it's normally bad to, but they haven't really been run or anything.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Just catch your fluids and reuse them. I do.

Seeing your timing marks on the crankshaft is near impossible with the engine in the car and since your heads will be milled this time, it becomes more critical to get the alignment right. 0.006" usually will do the trick but always check everything after it comes back from the machine shop. A good straight edge and some feeler gauges are in order. I would check them before you send them off and take notes. They should be the same measurements from the machine shop. If they are not, take them somewhere else. DO NOT TRUST ANYONE or ANYTHING. Check work and new parts thoroughly!

Not sure where you live but you can either rent a hoist or try to find a member in your area that is willing to help you out. I have also bought a hoist and then turned around and sold it when I was finished because I did not have a place to store one at the time. Could be an option.

As far as head gasket reuse, I would not. Just too much damn work to replace a head gasket if it does not seal properly. OEM is the way to go. As they say, "Pay now or pay later".

Make sure you torque everything to spec and in the proper sequence.

Here are the manuals and a few links to show you how to check head tolerances. You have the heads out, might as well check them over before sending them out to the machine shop.

One last thing. Clean all the flashing\casting material that you can get to before sending your heads out. Now is the time and some of it can become loose and cause real problems. You will see what I mean. I have seen blocked oil passages from this excess casting material. Take your time, check everything, and you will sleep better at night knowing you did everything you could to make your engine right.

3SX Performance - Service Manuals Backups 3000GT / Stealth*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMISjaWTfgQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcF16RAJtic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjmplL0Sfac
 
#23 ·
Alright, so I don't know what some people are on :p , but I don't know why so many people think pulling the engine is the best way to do pull the heads. I got them out in 6.5 hours without any air/power tools, and I'm definitely not the most mechanically inclined person out there. Only part that really sucked was summoning the strength of Hercules to pull that rear head out with everything to the downpipe attached. Oh, and the rear lower bolt on the water housing.

Anywho, since the heads are going to be machined, I don't have any cleaning issues to worry about. However, the block is a different story. I'm going out to buy a better set of feeler gauges and a straight edge tomorrow to ensure the block is flat, though I highly doubt it's out of spec. So, how do people go about cleaning the block surface? I've read all kinds of things from razors and drill attachments to scotch brite pads and towels. When I cleaned it the first time, I used a large glass scraper (my theory was the large surface area would decrease pressure points and make it much harder to gouge the metal), but I want to make sure it's perfect this time. I'm not doing this again if I can help it.

If pictures of it's current state would help, I can upload some. Just let me know.

P.S. Can anybody give me a definitive location for the block coolant drain plugs? There's coolant still in the coolant lines of the block, and I don't want it soaking the block after it's cleaned up.

P.P.S. I'm installing 3SX cam gears this time. It was motivation for tearing it apart again so soon. Is it better to set them at zero, get the car running, then go +1 -3? Or, can I just go ahead and do it now?
 
#24 · (Edited)
Alright, so I don't know what some people are on :p , but I don't know why so many people think pulling the engine is the best way to do pull the heads.
Its not pulling it apart that is difficult with the engine in the compartment, it is putting it back together. Especially if you are going to attempt installing cam gears that are degreed. 3SX had some recent issues with their cam gears so make sure your OEM belt goes ALL the way around the cam gears before attempting to install.

So, how do people go about cleaning the block surface? I've read all kinds of things from razors and drill attachments to scotch brite pads and towels.
Iron is a little bit more forgiving that aluminium but I treat them the same. A wide blade razor is a good idea. When you have the bulk of it off, scraping horizontal to the surface, take the razor blade and place it between your fingers, perpendicular to the block surface and scrape the residual off. You will see that it works real well. Use sharp blades and as many as you need to get the surface clean. DO NOT use any kind of abrasive material or power tool.

P.P.S. I'm installing 3SX cam gears this time. Is it better to set them at zero, get the car running, then go +1 -3? Or, can I just go ahead and do it now?
Some people just slap in the cam gears and trust that they are in time and are degreed at the settings stamped on the gears. I am not one to advocate this oversimplified approach. To do it properly, you need a timing wheel and a piston stop. Do a search on this forum or on the internet for this procedure. I think I remember the gentleman who found the 3SX cam gear problem also reported how FAR OFF the cam gears were from the settings posted on 3SX's website using a timing wheel and piston stop. He also gave the calculations if you use the cam itself, if memory serves me.

P.S. Did you find where the head gasket failed and which head it was?
Let us know how much the machine shop have to take off the heads to correct the warpage. Follow the torque specs and tightening sequence in the manual and you should not have any problems. Never torque a head bolt dry. A light coat of oil is required. If you can, run a tap down all the bolt holes to clean them out. At a minimum, run the bolts all the way down first and check for binding. Any debris or bad threads will throw off you torque readings.

Good Luck!!!!
 
#26 ·
It's possible the ECU could be bad, I suppose, but it was rebuilt around 10,000 miles or so. Maybe a bit more. If it still has problems after it's put back together, I'll check on it.

As for where the problems were, I'm not sure. I suspect my leak down tester from Harbor Freight wasn't too accurate. I got exactly 32% loss from every cylinder. Maybe it's just me, but that sounds kind of suspicious. As for looking at head gaskets and such, they got destroyed while I was pulling the heads off. They both got caught in one corner on the threads of a head bolt and got ripped apart while I was trying to unhook them. Good thing I bought new ones, eh? :lol:
 
#28 ·
I'm not sure who rebuilt it. The owner before me had it rebuilt, but he never told me who. I never even thought to ask.
 
#30 ·
I'm a bit stubborn sometimes, but I'll listen on occasion. Very rare occasion, but it does happen. :lol:

Also, thanks for the heads up on the cam gears. Seriously. I hadn't heard anything about them other than the first production being slightly too small. I probably would've installed them at zero and never found out what was causing it. I can't wait :rolleyes2 to figure out how to adjust for them, since the cam gears don't seem to be off by a x degrees on every one. It seems to vary.
 
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