strange lifter tick? or worse

[venik]

I've encountered lifter tick alot in my 3/s owning years. I usually change the oil when it shows up, but every oil change ive had to change it earlier and earlier. Now I can't get rid of it at all, except I'm not sure if it is the same lifter tick. Usually my lifters would tick only at idle and low rpm cruising. But the tick I currently have goes away at idle and low rpm cruising, and comes back with a vengeance with any acceleration at all. The more load the louder it is, until I reach boost then it seems to go away. 3rd and higher gears give me a constant lifter tick regardless of rpm. The car drives like a champ though, I have some cold start issues but I think it's just my tuning. So do spun bearings show any performance decrease? I have normal oil pressure btw. Could my car run this well if it is a valve slapping the piston?

Yesterday I tried the ATF fluid thing and seafoam to get rid of it, if anything it got worse. And it's hard to tell where its coming from because it only does it under load. So is there any way besides a stethoscope to find out for sure if it is lifter tick? edit: that is, before I actually change the lifters

[chrisb0003]

Originally Posted by venik

I've encountered lifter tick alot in my 3/s owning years. I usually change the oil when it shows up, but every oil change ive had to change it earlier and earlier. Now I can't get rid of it at all, except I'm not sure if it is the same lifter tick. Usually my lifters would tick only at idle and low rpm cruising. But the tick I currently have goes away at idle and low rpm cruising, and comes back with a vengeance with any acceleration at all. The more load the louder it is, until I reach boost then it seems to go away. 3rd and higher gears give me a constant lifter tick regardless of rpm. The car drives like a champ though, I have some cold start issues but I think it's just my tuning. So do spun bearings show any performance decrease? I have normal oil pressure btw. Could my car run this well if it is a valve slapping the piston?

Yesterday I tried the ATF fluid thing and seafoam to get rid of it, if anything it got worse. And it's hard to tell where its coming from because it only does it under load. So is there any way besides a stethoscope to find out for sure if it is lifter tick? edit: that is, before I actually change the lifters

You can usually get a rod to start making noise by slowly opening the throttle while standing over the engine. The old guy that showed me called it "singing", but at one certain rpm, you'll hear that rod start "singing" if you have a rod bearing out. I'm not talking anything high, probably under 2500 rpm. And don't rev it, just slowly open the throttle, and you'll hear a very rapid consistant knocking. Almost like what pinging sounds like, only a lot louder.

You can also take a long screwdriver and put the metal end on the engine and your ear against the handle, and you'll be able to pinpoint where the noise is loudest. But you really don't have to if the above works, because if it did, you'll find which rod was bad when you pull the motor.

Also if you had a bent valve or your timing was off enough that the vavle was hitting the piston, you'd definitely notice some idle issues, and it probably wouldn't run very good at all. When a rod bearing starts to go out, you usually get what your getting at certain rpm. Eventually it starts doing it all the time as the bearing gets thinner. Or the bearing will spin while your getting on it and the rod will come out through the pan. Right now, the way you describe it, it probably hasn't spun yet, its just worn to the point where the oil (especially as it gets older) can take up the space between the crank and the bearing any more. Every symptom you've described is normally that of a rod knock.. I'm not sure about under boost though... maybe the pressure is keeping the noise down... Not sure, never diagnosed a rod knock on a turbocharged car before...

[whatstang]

I am no expert but if i were you i would say to first check the spark plugs for signs of detonation. There is a guide on stealth316.com that explains the conditions pretty well. Also if it is a spun bearing i think you can start by checking the clearances on the crank via the oil pan. Hope this helps and as i said before i am no expert so may be someone could explain this more clearly. Goodluck

[phantomrt]

If the bearing SPUN, you'd know about it. It is scary to be next to a pun bearing engine while it is revving up. When a bearing spins, it is caused by the bearing getting so hot that it welds itself to the crankshaft and shreds the bearing to smithereens.

Rod bearing noise is very consistent. and I've never heard it sound like a ticking noise either.

What about an exhaust leak upstream of the turbos? That can easily cause a ticking noise when the engine is under load. Even an EGR gasket leaking a bit....

[eddy]

I'm just rebuilding my engine again from a spun bearing. When your bearing first spins you don't get too loud of a noise. The longer you drive the car the louder it will become. It sounds to me like you spun a bearing. Take your oil filter off and cut the metal to take out the paper inside. If you spun a bearing you will have some copper particles in it. You should also see some metal in your oil.

[venik]

Originally Posted by phantomrt

If the bearing SPUN, you'd know about it. It is scary to be next to a pun bearing engine while it is revving up. When a bearing spins, it is caused by the bearing getting so hot that it welds itself to the crankshaft and shreds the bearing to smithereens.

Rod bearing noise is very consistent. and I've never heard it sound like a ticking noise either.

What about an exhaust leak upstream of the turbos? That can easily cause a ticking noise when the engine is under load. Even an EGR gasket leaking a bit....

hmm I think it really could be an exhaust leak, it does sound like that pop that a car running open headers would have. Also... when I did the screwdriver thing I didnt have a long enough screwdriver to check the rear valve cover but I noticed I might have an exhaust leak somewhere in the rear. I just installed td05 headers wastegates & e16gs about a month or so ago which also makes it a likely culpirit. Thank god, I'm so relieved. I was allready thinking about buying plastiguage and whatnot.

So a few questions...
what could have caused it? over torquing? Is it possible its just a under torqued bolt or 2? If it is would that have damaged the gasket? what if its a cracked header?

I know I should go investigate myself instead of asking on the forum. I'm just sooooo sick of working on this damn thing I'd like to get in and out fast...hehe. I just did the 120k and fixed a rear main seal; on top of spending too much time on the turbos b/c I stripped 2 threads. And I still have to do my VSS, and fix a bad TO bearing.

[phantomrt]

I have seen bearings get eaten up slowly to the point where the bearing clearance to the crankshaft is huge--like .05" or so and you get a light knocking, and that beating the bearing takes when the crank pin rattles around in there is enough to deform the bearing enough where it becomes loose and can spin around in the rod a bit. But if that bearing welds itself to the crank pin, (true meaning of a SPUN bearing if you want to be technical) the connecting rod is destroyed instantly and there is nothing quiet about the engine after that. However, I really believe that you can relax over that being an issue right now.

If in doubt, remove the oil pan and if you have bearing issues, it will be obvious by looking at the glitter inside. Also, if you reach up and try to move the connecting rods perpendicular to the crankshaft centerline, you will be able to FEEL play in there if there is a problem. If you cannot feel the play, you cannot hear it. It is normal to feel a VERY slight amount of play when twisting the rods though. Most people wouldn't notice that kind of play. It is almost not even worth mentioning.

To further describe such an exhaust leak noise... at normal cruise, you basically cannot hear it, or maybe you can. Ease on the gas pedal a bit and then you hear the "ticking" noise start or get worse.

I am guessing either a missing gasket, a doubled-up gasket (where the old one wasn't removed), a re-used gasket, or a bolt or two is just not tight is the cause. Over-torquing sounds doubtful unless it was to the point where the bolt was at the verge of breaking and then it finally snapped later on when a few thermal cycles got to it. I predict that the leak is caused by the EGR tube, where the header bolts to the cylinder head, or where the downpipes attach to the headers/turbos. Possibly between the turbo and the header?

And yes, it could be a cracked header. There are aftermarket headers for cars ranging from a Model T to a brand new Nissan GTR. Some are total garbage. A child could have made a better quality header than some that are out there.

Having a dyno on hand would probably make finding this exhaust leak MUCH easier... put the engine under a constant load and poke around with a stethoscope until it is found.

[venik]

Originally Posted by phantomrt

I have seen bearings get eaten up slowly to the point where the bearing clearance to the crankshaft is huge--like .05" or so and you get a light knocking, and that beating the bearing takes when the crank pin rattles around in there is enough to deform the bearing enough where it becomes loose and can spin around in the rod a bit. But if that bearing welds itself to the crank pin, (true meaning of a SPUN bearing if you want to be technical) the connecting rod is destroyed instantly and there is nothing quiet about the engine after that. However, I really believe that you can relax over that being an issue right now.

If in doubt, remove the oil pan and if you have bearing issues, it will be obvious by looking at the glitter inside. Also, if you reach up and try to move the connecting rods perpendicular to the crankshaft centerline, you will be able to FEEL play in there if there is a problem. If you cannot feel the play, you cannot hear it. It is normal to feel a VERY slight amount of play when twisting the rods though. Most people wouldn't notice that kind of play. It is almost not even worth mentioning.

To further describe such an exhaust leak noise... at normal cruise, you basically cannot hear it, or maybe you can. Ease on the gas pedal a bit and then you hear the "ticking" noise start or get worse.

I am guessing either a missing gasket, a doubled-up gasket (where the old one wasn't removed), a re-used gasket, or a bolt or two is just not tight is the cause. Over-torquing sounds doubtful unless it was to the point where the bolt was at the verge of breaking and then it finally snapped later on when a few thermal cycles got to it. I predict that the leak is caused by the EGR tube, where the header bolts to the cylinder head, or where the downpipes attach to the headers/turbos. Possibly between the turbo and the header?

And yes, it could be a cracked header. There are aftermarket headers for cars ranging from a Model T to a brand new Nissan GTR. Some are total garbage. A child could have made a better quality header than some that are out there.

Having a dyno on hand would probably make finding this exhaust leak MUCH easier... put the engine under a constant load and poke around with a stethoscope until it is found.

thanks thats an informative post. I asked JasonY about it, and he had a good idea...check for carbon deposits where they shouldn't be. This is 3SX's kit and I assume the headers are good quality. The kit came with all the gaskets and I used them all. I'm pretty sure I removed the stock header gasket but there is like 3 of them so who knows. Also considering how hard some of the bolts are to get to its very possible I didn't torque a bolt or two as tight as I should have. I probably won't check it out for a few days though, i'm just worn out and theres no rush. I won't be driving it of course.

Can you elaborate on the EGR tube? I'm using block off plates, was there something I should have known while installing the rear header?