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Old 12-09-2012, 08:17 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

noone really cares from what i can tell the answer is " spend 3000$ on the magic turbo" instead of what or why.

the stock turbine shaft and area is SMALL. and makes 300Hp with no lag.
when you want to make 400-600HP through the same exhaust hole. and fan size and shape. well you get more back pressure.. HL is a LARGE step from the stock size.

theL is only 1.3 mm larger exducer. same size inducer. not much of an upgrade. but if youare only looking for 400-450 it might be a nice size step.

next up in size is the H at 5mm larger inducer and 4mm larger exducer. that is a good size step and will reduce your back pressure in the manifolds a good ammount. and allow more exhaust flow out. maybee a small increase in lag. but more power due to lower backpressure .

the HL is +5mm on the inducer and 5.5 on the ex. wow. big boy ., lots of flow out. larger heavier wheel= more spool. and more area meaning it would be a great set up with some head porting or cams that could use the flow.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

All this TD04 comparo talk with "lag" being discussed is giving my flash backs of the early 2000's.

Matt/DR's turbos work because hes spent more money in R&D for this platform than anyone else with a wide margin. Matt sells results not theories.

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Old 12-09-2012, 10:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

I really wanted to discuss the option turbine wheels for this platform. and exhaust sizes going through the turbos.
but again.. every ./. .single.. answer is. " spend 3000$" for the best..

okay.. what size turbine shaft has been declared the best..
at least in turbo dodges we knew the magic number for going from the .48 to the .63 A/R was around 250HP.
I know HL wheels were used to spooling 2.5 volvos.. makes 240HP. and the TE04H was sickeningly small even for the stock 150HP. but it was put on insteed of the T03 from previous 2.2's to decrease the "lag" that magazines loved to talk about.
the only answer to 3s cars isnt " spend 3000$" im sure people have changed exhaust wheels. and experimented. everyone with a real 13T center section is running an L wheel.

what i really want to know is.. at what HP level is the t04 wheel and area size a Restriction. to make moving to a H or HL wheel a worth while upgrade to reduce back pressure and revision of exhaust gases back into the clean combustion chamber before the valve closes. at what point is the restriction in the exhaust side so high that it stalls boosted clean air entering the chamber during over lap to cause a loss of power that can be avoided by a wheel and housing area that can flow more. with out having such a huge exhaust side it wont spool it.

Lag is a real thing. and trying to find a turbo that will spool off a 1.5ltr 3 cylinder and make over 200HP below 4000RPM is pretty impressive. im glad Mitsu did.
waiting on my SOHC 2.2ltr dodge omni's T3/T4 to spool up was an exercise in patience.



back to original topics here. anyone have real world experience in changing turbine wheels, in affect to full spool RPM. or seen a HP or rev range increase when boring out a t04 to a t04hl ?
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:02 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

the L wheel is pointless over stock. Sure, if it is free as in the case of a 13T upgrade, then why not, but I wouldn't upgrade to the L turbine just to do so.

The HL wheel is good for about 30HP at the 450-500 HP level. 200-300 RPM more lag.

There is actually more "spool" to be hard in tuning and optimizing your setup than worry about the tiny difference that a larger wheel is going to hurt you.

The DR750 wheels have less blades and a cast in clip, which is why they can flow a ton, but you can still make 550 on normal HL wheels.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:50 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

hes a bolt on guy. dont know how flow works.. i say let him spend his money on his theory. then let him spend money on someone elses
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:44 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

Quote:
Originally Posted by camaro0281 View Post
hes a bolt on guy. dont know how flow works.. i say let him spend his money on his theory. then let him spend money on someone elses
thanks for the help on this topic.. and the insults and bad grammar and sentence structure. And i'm happy you know how much i know about flow.. And you also are fully aware of my engines modifications currently to my car.

let me comment on you then. " saying someone is a bolt on buy doesnt make you a genius or john force. you obviously dont under stand how turbos work other than the little knobbie on your boost controller dial. the only money I have spent on this entire subject is the keyboard im typing with. bring some substance and information. keep your arrogance and self righteous ignorance out of here and bring facts and data."
maybe you should go read and understand the effects of turbo "clipping" then figure out how that relates to a physically larger wheel.. Then read about turbo exhaust A/r's. and boost vs manifold back pressure.



but back to forests actual helpful reply.

Ya im not to worried about spool or lag. I am concerned at what HP and boost level is the stock T04 blade and flow through the turbine side a restriction enough to spend the 250-400$ more in getting a larger crosssection inside the turbine side..

maybee this will help.

this is the area that the exhaust has to move its way through. at stock HP levels it has to flow 160HP worth of exhaust.

at some point bigger is better.bigger lets more gas out. with out being such a big turbine side you dont have the flow to get the wheel spinning.
going to a bigger wheel and boring out the housing, Like alot of people have done, seems to be done now at a blind aim and shoot. with no data. At some point it will help. but at some point it will be a useless expendature on a larger wheel.



Just like a VNT turbo changes the A/R.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:21 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

Ray has pushed ~650awhp through his 750's (stock 3/s turbine housings). There is no way in hell he's doing that with a standard td04 turbine wheel.

People have done back to back testing with one wheel vs the other, so you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. I honestly don't even know what side you're arguing.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

I'm not aware of any back pressure testing on a 3s with td04 framed turbos. All it takes is a drill, some fittings, copper tubing, and a cheap boost gauge. My guess is at least 2:1 exhaust to intake after 1bar. Most people see big gains adjusting the cams for less overlap, this screams high exhaust pressure.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

I understand what you're after. DSM and other forums have already done all the work. This platform isn't concerned about breaking down all the data so there's only a few dyno results between the L vs HL gains.

It's kind of like data for cams or heads. Nobody really bothers to test them outside of putting them on a car and running a 1/4 mile number whereas other platforms have it broken down to exact gains over various power levels and turbos plus plenty of bench flow numbers.

Most people won't care what you're doing but it's good to know the statistics behind the design even though we know which parts will push a car to make X power, but I think you should continue since the theory and concepts will transfer over to bigger turbos which at some point will probably help someone make a turbo choice over merely looking at hp ratings. It at least helps the consumer be more aware of potential bottlenecks.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lets talking Turbine wheels!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mb3000 View Post
R

People have done back to back testing with one wheel vs the other, so you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. I honestly don't even know what side you're arguing.
all im looking for is this data. can you point me to it. or do you remember a synopsis of it. Im not arguing im looking for data or a discussion on turbine sides. or dyno runs.

basicaly at a 400-500AWHP goal, is it still fine to run a t04. or should you move up. should you go straight for the HL. what have other people found.
on older turbo dodges we knew the magic numbers were 250-270HP on the small exhaust side.

a compressor wheel is only half the equation.
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