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Old 01-25-2013, 07:33 PM   #161 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

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Originally Posted by sensational980 View Post
I think I was running with these last summer NGK bkr7es-11, so which plugs part # wise are you guys recommending when you say non projected tip?

Whats advantage those ones?
NGK non projected don't start until 8
NGK R5671A-8

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Old 01-25-2013, 08:45 PM   #162 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

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Originally Posted by sensational980 View Post
Yepthats been my biggest problem nothing going as planned when Im ready for it to happen.

Why would the motor not handle the meth at that psi or that much 24psi vs me running race gas or E-85?

I have 550 injectors with 93 pump gas. Also gonna install this SITI for timing that I have.

I plan to run the car hopefully at track no meth and see where it stands then add meth and see what it can do.

Before I upgraded from my 9bs I was at 13s flat. And the car was half a$$ then. Motor mounts were bad exhaust was stock suspension shot and so on.

Got open exhaust now, solid mounts, brace in new coilovers and gonna get 2 new tires as the car came with 2 bad ones on stock rims and I was running with 20s last summer. Only gonna run with stocks at track.
Our manifold doesn't make for the best of distribution into the cylinders when it comes to spraying meth into the intercooler pipe. Running 4-6 psi over regular pump seems to be fine. After that with big nozzles people on stock motors tend to have problems with the internals holding together because the distribution of meth isn't uniform which can result in one cylinder experiencing a lean condition for example. Direct injecting would help a great deal.

Part of the problem too it seems like on stock motors is injecting the meth at too early of a boost pressure. If you hit a part-throttle, lower rpm area cruising around and because of the quick spool your meth system engages when you're not even WOT, the stock ecu will advance timing, the knock sensor might not pick up the knock if enough volume of meth is sprayed, and then the pistons go bye bye. As long as you have a good tuning control on it you will be fine. With forged internals it will be more forgiving than stock. The only way to find out how far you will make it is to try it.

Todd blew up two motors and went through multiple sets of DR-750s injecting 600cc of meth boosting 25-30 psi. It was the part-throttle, injecting meth situations that killed the motor because of the ecu advancing timing, inducing knock, and killing the stock hypereutectic pistons. Just be careful is all I'm saying once you start passing 22-23 psi on your turbos. I think the best you can do outside of going AEM EMS or flashed ECU is to start spraying meth at 15 psi maybe a few psi less. You don't want to confuse the ecu so while that may mean losing some low/mid range power from not injecting meth at an earlier psi, it also might mean the difference between keeping your motor together.

One of the reasons I think my motor has stayed together on E85 up to 30 psi on stock internals is the fact that I'm using almost all my 1000cc injectors can flow in fuel. Too low of IDC numbers will shift you to a different part of the timing map running a piggyback. The other factor is that I haven't messed with timing i.e. I can't advance timing and thus have not gotten greedy adding too much timing pushing me past MBT because the knock sensor wasn't picking up knock. I have turned it down to 22-24 psi until I get a flashed ecu in because I want the finer control plus safety features to push my car further.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:09 PM   #163 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

Yeah i dont want to blow my motor or turbos. Will let the professional tune me up in the 20s-30psi range

I'm just looking to make 500awhp anything after that without killing my motor and thats a plus.
Almost sounds like I should just go E-85. Wish I was closer to the tuning experts thats the big issue. Even with all the stuff I have, I feel I may not pick up on something and go to far till the motor goes.

Im gonna have to make a trip.
Only place here in wisconsin that does tuning on awd cars is in Greenbay and they prefer not to touch a 3S, they claim they are to complicated and hard to tune.

Can you explain this a little futher? "One of the reasons I think my motor has stayed together on E85 up to 30 psi on stock internals is the fact that I'm using almost all my 1000cc injectors can flow in fuel. Too low of IDC numbers will shift you to a different part of the timing map running a piggyback."

So piggy back would cause the IDC #s to be way low...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboSinceBirth View Post
Our manifold doesn't make for the best of distribution into the cylinders when it comes to spraying meth into the intercooler pipe. Running 4-6 psi over regular pump seems to be fine. After that with big nozzles people on stock motors tend to have problems with the internals holding together because the distribution of meth isn't uniform which can result in one cylinder experiencing a lean condition for example. Direct injecting would help a great deal.

Part of the problem too it seems like on stock motors is injecting the meth at too early of a boost pressure. If you hit a part-throttle, lower rpm area cruising around and because of the quick spool your meth system engages when you're not even WOT, the stock ecu will advance timing, the knock sensor might not pick up the knock if enough volume of meth is sprayed, and then the pistons go bye bye. As long as you have a good tuning control on it you will be fine. With forged internals it will be more forgiving than stock. The only way to find out how far you will make it is to try it.

Todd blew up two motors and went through multiple sets of DR-750s injecting 600cc of meth boosting 25-30 psi. It was the part-throttle, injecting meth situations that killed the motor because of the ecu advancing timing, inducing knock, and killing the stock hypereutectic pistons. Just be careful is all I'm saying once you start passing 22-23 psi on your turbos. I think the best you can do outside of going AEM EMS or flashed ECU is to start spraying meth at 15 psi maybe a few psi less. You don't want to confuse the ecu so while that may mean losing some low/mid range power from not injecting meth at an earlier psi, it also might mean the difference between keeping your motor together.

One of the reasons I think my motor has stayed together on E85 up to 30 psi on stock internals is the fact that I'm using almost all my 1000cc injectors can flow in fuel. Too low of IDC numbers will shift you to a different part of the timing map running a piggyback. The other factor is that I haven't messed with timing i.e. I can't advance timing and thus have not gotten greedy adding too much timing pushing me past MBT because the knock sensor wasn't picking up knock. I have turned it down to 22-24 psi until I get a flashed ecu in because I want the finer control plus safety features to push my car further.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:29 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboSinceBirth View Post
Our manifold doesn't make for the best of distribution into the cylinders when it comes to spraying meth into the intercooler pipe. Running 4-6 psi over regular pump seems to be fine. After that with big nozzles people on stock motors tend to have problems with the internals holding together because the distribution of meth isn't uniform which can result in one cylinder experiencing a lean condition for example. Direct injecting would help a great deal.
Have you seen these?

Ultimate Performance - 3000gt / Stealth parts page

Seems like a good way to provide direct,even, meth injection.

What do you think?
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:48 AM   #165 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensational980 View Post
Yeah i dont want to blow my motor or turbos. Will let the professional tune me up in the 20s-30psi range

I'm just looking to make 500awhp anything after that without killing my motor and thats a plus.
Almost sounds like I should just go E-85. Wish I was closer to the tuning experts thats the big issue. Even with all the stuff I have, I feel I may not pick up on something and go to far till the motor goes.

Im gonna have to make a trip.
Only place here in wisconsin that does tuning on awd cars is in Greenbay and they prefer not to touch a 3S, they claim they are to complicated and hard to tune.

Can you explain this a little futher? "One of the reasons I think my motor has stayed together on E85 up to 30 psi on stock internals is the fact that I'm using almost all my 1000cc injectors can flow in fuel. Too low of IDC numbers will shift you to a different part of the timing map running a piggyback."

So piggy back would cause the IDC #s to be way low...
I don't know exactly what my IDC is right now because I'm having some issues with noise over my OBDII causing datalogger issues, but I know I'm almost maxed out. Right now I'm running around 11.8-12.1:1 AFR WOT and can only add about 2% more fuel before the piggback is maxed at adding 20% fuel. I'm sure I'm over 80% but less than 100.

You're fooling the ecu with a piggyback altering the airflow numbers so the ecu sees what it wants to in order to not hit fuel cut on bigger injectors. IDC is used by the ecu to calculate timing. You can ask Greg for the full breakdown if you like since he knows the code. With a lower IDC the ecu will throw more timing at the engine and vise versa if the IDC is high. When you run larger injectors but your actual power output isn't using all of the available injector, you will in general be running more advanced timing which will induce knock since it can get to the point where you're firing the spark as the piston is traveling up to TDC. If you want more reading about timing and injector size check out Trevor's thread: Tech: My take on injectors vs. timing control vs. HP with the stock ECU.

Essentially then I'm using 80-90% of my 1000cc injectors to provide enough fuel on E85. They flow around 920cc from the flow sheet which should provide me roughly 640AWHP on E85. If I were only using 50-60% of the injector for example I would be running advanced timing and the motor would be knocking as a result. The only way to play nice when using a piggyback that fools the stock ecu yet still make it happy is to select the right injector size to keep timing in check.

Of course, with your 550s you won't have any issues running pump plus meth. With the meth you should have another 100AWHP worth of fuel so I bet you could go as far as 650AWHP except the turbos won't make it that far.

Also, if you're using a standalone engine management or a flashed ecu you can adjust the fueling for whatever size injector you want to run. You don't have to worry about running too big of an injector. You can tune around all of that and more. Plus, you'll have more safety features for knock and meth control.

The only thing I have to worry about with a piggyback is part-throttle knock with this large of an injector. I notice if I develop any small vacuum leak due to running so much boost my car will go rich on tip-in throttle, then 1-2.5 AFR points leaner which is too much causing a few counts of knock. I have no idea how much the E70 I'm running is masking and if the 3-5 counts I see could be something more like 10-15 and I don't know it. I pressure test after I see these conditions and need to go back through things again because of old parts. I plan to run a flashed ecu so I can have finer control over my fuel down to tenths of an AFR point, full timing control, multiple safety provisions for knock, and the ability to run bigger injectors probably 1600cc to 2000cc depending on where I go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by westcott View Post
Have you seen these?

Ultimate Performance - 3000gt / Stealth parts page

Seems like a good way to provide direct,even, meth injection.

What do you think?
That would work for nitrous but there aren't any nozzles for spraying meth. I doubt it would give a mist spray pattern that you need. The way to go would be nozzles setup on each runner. There are a few people that welded bungs to their intake manifold for each runner so they could do a direct port meth system.

Last edited by TurboSinceBirth; 01-26-2013 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:49 AM   #166 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Import Power View Post
NGK non projected don't start until 8
NGK R5671A-8

-Chris
Chris, do they leak noise pretty bad to the stereo? I need better spark but I also don't want noise and cracking through my speakers
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:27 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Import Power View Post
NGK non projected don't start until 8
NGK R5671A-8

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? These are what I am running:

NGK Racing Spark Plugs 4091 - SummitRacing.com
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:19 AM   #168 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

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Originally Posted by TurboSinceBirth View Post
Our manifold doesn't make for the best of distribution into the cylinders when it comes to spraying meth into the intercooler pipe. Running 4-6 psi over regular pump seems to be fine. After that with big nozzles people on stock motors tend to have problems with the internals holding together because the distribution of meth isn't uniform which can result in one cylinder experiencing a lean condition for example. Direct injecting would help a great deal.

Part of the problem too it seems like on stock motors is injecting the meth at too early of a boost pressure. If you hit a part-throttle, lower rpm area cruising around and because of the quick spool your meth system engages when you're not even WOT, the stock ecu will advance timing, the knock sensor might not pick up the knock if enough volume of meth is sprayed, and then the pistons go bye bye. As long as you have a good tuning control on it you will be fine. With forged internals it will be more forgiving than stock. The only way to find out how far you will make it is to try it.

Todd blew up two motors and went through multiple sets of DR-750s injecting 600cc of meth boosting 25-30 psi. It was the part-throttle, injecting meth situations that killed the motor because of the ecu advancing timing, inducing knock, and killing the stock hypereutectic pistons. Just be careful is all I'm saying once you start passing 22-23 psi on your turbos. I think the best you can do outside of going AEM EMS or flashed ECU is to start spraying meth at 15 psi maybe a few psi less. You don't want to confuse the ecu so while that may mean losing some low/mid range power from not injecting meth at an earlier psi, it also might mean the difference between keeping your motor together.

One of the reasons I think my motor has stayed together on E85 up to 30 psi on stock internals is the fact that I'm using almost all my 1000cc injectors can flow in fuel. Too low of IDC numbers will shift you to a different part of the timing map running a piggyback. The other factor is that I haven't messed with timing i.e. I can't advance timing and thus have not gotten greedy adding too much timing pushing me past MBT because the knock sensor wasn't picking up knock. I have turned it down to 22-24 psi until I get a flashed ecu in because I want the finer control plus safety features to push my car further.
this is why I have a progressive meth kit and safegaurd system that pulls timing per set boost level and if knock is detected it pulls more timing.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:45 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

When Todd and JasonY blew up Todd's DR750 stock long block motor JasonY said there was no knock detected. Our knock sensors cannot handle having too much methanol or ethanol. Same thing applies to e85 and why we can't see knock untill it's too late. Then our ears become knock sensors and our wallet detonates.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:31 AM   #170 (permalink)
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Default Re: Billet DR650 BUILD FINALLY! ANOTHER 10s 1/4?

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When Todd and JasonY blew up Todd's DR750 stock long block motor JasonY said there was no knock detected. Our knock sensors cannot handle having too much methanol or ethanol. Same thing applies to e85 and why we can't see knock untill it's too late. Then our ears become knock sensors and our wallet detonates.
I plan to use the Chris Hill method (IIRC) if I ever go E85. Turn it up until it stops making more torque, then turn it down a lil.
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