these 2 turbos look the same, yet one set is nearly 2x as much, i realize its because of the ball bearings. heres my question on a 3.0 or 3.4(stroker like you sell). would either of these turbos come on(fully boost) any faster than my td05's? or would the bigger size cause more lag than a td05?
im getting a set but want to know if the extra grand for the garrets will pay for itself in a earlier spool time(cause of the ball bearings). i really want full boost before 4k! thx, j
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unless you're totally a baller, stay away from ball bearing turbos. 99% of the time they cannot be rebuilt. and you won't see a benefit to performance on par with the increased cost (diminishing returns).
you're usually better off spending the additional $$$ on larger turbos / better piping, rather than going BB.
just my $.02
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On the shelf : Denso 660cc, 3SX poly mounts, 3SX cam gears, SCE racing oil pan, South Bend stage 4 FE clutch... and some other nice toys are comming soon.
...i wish i could find the thread i pulled my info from.
sure, if you can afford them; great! rebuilding them is something that isn't unheard of--but every piece of info i've researched on BB turbos says that those are the exception, not the rule.
Ball Bearings turbos flow less oil than journal bearing turbos so they need coolant, no coolant they will not last! The spool-up avantage you can have is appreciable.
couldn't find the thread on 3si, but here's what i do have immediate access to.
from Super Street magazine, sept 2009:
The introduction of ball bearing center cartridges has given way to smaller frame turbos with capabilities of midsized standard bearing counterparts....This way, you can choose a large compressor wheel that can be matched disproportionately to a smaller turbine wheel.
In a ball bearing application, the thrust load is virtually eliminated because of the tight clearance between the shaft & ball bearings...especially effective in applications that requires high response (circuit racing, auto cross, drifting, and street) because the increase in peak effective boost is not apparent as the spool up rate.
The biggest discerning factor is cost. Expect to pay double or more for BB turbos. ON top of that, ball bearing cartridges are so expensive to service, that you just don't. You either have to buy a new center assembly or buy a new turbo. (pg. 60)
the gist:
the MAIN reason that BB turbos can spool faster is because of the compressor & turbine wheels they can be paired with. compressor/turbine wheels will always run on a continuum between peak CFM & rpm spool. BB's allow for widely mis-matched turbines & compressors to be utilized in the same turbo--thereby yielding substantially different characteristics than non BB turbos--who are restricted to turbines & compressors more on parity with each other (size wise).
Last edited by inperfectdarkness : 09-22-2009 at 09:15 PM.
debated journal vs bb, and after talking to just about everyone, and getting so many diif opinions, i ordered ball bearing turbo. The reason is because the bb cartridge is way better quality, you can push the turbo as hard as you want, spool is going to be a tad bit better (500rpms or so) but when you will notice it the most is on and off, and back on the throttle, and torque will be a little better. The cons of it of course is the cost diff, rebuild is high, and i going to put a filter and restrictor on it and thats another $75.
Locally i know a guy that is a precision turbo wholesaler, he talk like it was pointless to go bb, till his journal blew up on him, put a bb and made better numbers, and has push the turbo harder than he ever has and has never had a problem.
Make the decision easy, got the extra money, go bb, if you dont, go journal. but the bb is the better turbo from what i could find out.
couldn't find the thread on 3si, but here's what i do have immediate access to.
from Super Street magazine, sept 2009:
The introduction of ball bearing center cartridges has given way to smaller frame turbos with capabilities of midsized standard bearing counterparts....This way, you can choose a large compressor wheel that can be matched disproportionately to a smaller turbine wheel.
In a ball bearing application, the thrust load is virtually eliminated because of the tight clearance between the shaft & ball bearings...especially effective in applications that requires high response (circuit racing, auto cross, drifting, and street) because the increase in peak effective boost is not apparent as the spool up rate.
The biggest discerning factor is cost. Expect to pay double or more for BB turbos. ON top of that, ball bearing cartridges are so expensive to service, that you just don't. You either have to buy a new center assembly or buy a new turbo. (pg. 60)
the gist:
the MAIN reason that BB turbos can spool faster is because of the compressor & turbine wheels they can be paired with. compressor/turbine wheels will always run on a continuum between peak CFM & rpm spool. BB's allow for widely mis-matched turbines & compressors to be utilized in the same turbo--thereby yielding substantially different characteristics than non BB turbos--who are restricted to turbines & compressors more on parity with each other (size wise).
First, that magazine is using bad info. 5 years ago Garrett didnt offer rebuild kits for the DBB turbos BUT they were rebuilding turbos AT the racetrack for the GM Hotrod cars (1000+ hp FWD cars running high 7 low 8's).
Garrett now sells rebuild kits. And sorry to say it but who in their right mind would junk an entire turbo because its expensive to rebuild? You could buy another entire center section if you really needed to, and guess what? It would be a LOT cheaper then an entire new turbo. P
Thats an extreme example. They are rebuildable. If someone tells you different, then find another rebuilder!
#2. The jibberish about wheel mismatches on DBB turbos. It would only be possible to claim such a thing if the DBB made a large difference in spool! Therefore mismatching aint the reason why! Logic ftw!
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1992 Duster 11.54@125 22psi BONE Stock 6g72 12 valve - 12.7@114 14psi boost -516whp 519ft/lb 20psi (Old 3.13L built shortblock) - Precision 6765, Tial 38mm open dump, 3" open downpipe, 20x12x3" evo style intercooler, Stock 10:1 diamante 12 valve shortblock with regapped rings. heavily ported heads (+40% on flowbench), Ferrea Competition Plus +2 +1 stainless valves, Nielson Vintage Racing 278 custom turbo cams, RPW cam gears, Custom Ram Style short runner intake manifold, 12 Gal Jaz Fuel Cell, Dual external Walbro GSL392 255HPs, Dual 5/16" feed lines, Trick Flow AFPR, 3 puck solid hub & 3300# DD plate, OBX Torsional Diff, Zeitronix wideband/EGT/Boost, 2100cc 3 nozzle DevilsOwn Meth. Running on 4.0 BAR Megasquirt II, 47# Inj, E70 Fuel
1994 Spirit - 13.987@101.89 - 5psi- 6g72 SOHC, K27 Turbo http://videos.streetfire.net/video/9...-on_649313.htm
well i stand corrected. my assumption was that after consulting HKS, garrett, greddy and turbonetics...they would have had a bit of wisdom to what they printed.
like i said, that's all i have access to currently. i'm glad to hear things have changed. maybe BB turbo's aren't the B***H to work on that they used to be.
Even though it's word on the street, I've heard that BB turbo's don't last as long as non BB turbo's. In other words you'll be rebuilding them sooner. Either case, if the price difference is $1,000 they better do more than spool faster.
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93TT Stealth, mods include: Forge dual piston open loop BOV, full ATR setup, GReddy PRofec E-01 boost controller, MAP-ECU, GT Pro "Y" pipe, very 1st Dynamic Racing DR650R's, UDP, RPS Stage II clutch with aluminum flywheel, ACCEL coil conversion, GReddy 60mm white faced boost and EGT gauges on "A" pillar with peak hold, white faced cluster gauges, Kenne Bell Boost-a-pump, denso fuel pump, Denso 660 injectors, Bob's short throw shifter, LM-1 wide band O2 sensor. 99 front end conversion with Cianci Viper hood and 1970 Boss Mustang hood pins, TEIN lowering springs.
96TT Stealth #53 of 57, mods include: DNP hardpipe kit, Borla exhaust.
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pte or garret?
