Output shaft replacement without tranny pull: EASY

[DoctorDex]

cbatters: Just curious how long it took you to replace your output shaft?

Can anyone tell me if any special tools are needed and can anyone tell me what the cover plate is, the one with the three little balls?

I'm planning on pulling my VCU in the next few days and I'd appreciate any help or suggestions.

Thanks.

Declan

P.S. Anybody know if Mark Williams still makes those 300m output shafts? The link listed above no longer works and I couldnt' find it on his website.

[cbatters]

Haven't replaced it yet.

We tossed in the new xfer case but did not have time to swap the output shaft. (We were helping another member do a 60K and I had to replace a ball joint / tie rod end.)

On the list of things to do this summer while the weather is pleasant.



Clint

[Bret Brinkmann]

It looks like the output shaft and the center diff internals can be removed this way. The plate you are talking about is the detent plate. When facing the end cover as in the posted pictures, it will be on your right hand side and have two 10 mm bolts for a 5 speed and four 10 mm bolts or a 6 speed. They can be installed two different ways but only one way is correct. If you don't remove that cover and the balls and springs, then you will break some thing just like some who called me did. The shift rods are held into position with those detent springs and balls.

Near the ends of the rods are notches that are cut and the balls rest against. The ends of the rods are not cut and the larger diameter of the rods will press against the balls which are against the springs on the other side, compress the springs fully, and then if you continue to try and remove the end coer with out removing the detent plate, sprins, and balls, some thng has to break. Usually the balls cruch and get out of round and the notches in the rods get distorted which makes for erratic shift feel, block out, and even getting stuck in gear as metal dust and flakes from the damage wedge inbetween the end cover bore and the rods and the rods bind. The rods have also been known to warp if the end cover isn't installed with everything lineing up perfectly and forcefully pressed onto the input shaft anyway.

Other things members have told me include but are not limited to, chipped gear teeth from prying on the counter shaft, damaged bearings from prying agianst and/or remove the bearing on the end of the counter shaft. For those that have removed reverse gear from the counter shaft, they have had the syncho sleeve pop out of place which allowed the sycnhro detent springs and balls to fly everywhere. Those that have had the springs break were stuck buying a whole new synchro assembly and had to remove the whole tranny anyway to install it. For those that didn't have the springs break when they flew out, they still had to remove the tranny to reassemble the synchro assembly.

I have heard of end covers breaking because they were on so tight that the force required to pry them off broke the end cover before the input shaft would press off of it's bearing. (That is why they are soo hard to remove because of that press fit bearing.) To properly remove the end cover from the input shaft you have to pull the tranny. I have heard of people not knowing that they had to replace that plastic plug that goes over the hex bolt and they reused it. Soon afterwards it poped out and their trannys ran dry do to the hugh fluid leak which resulted in so much internal damage that it was cheaper to buy a new unit rather than repair it. In which case they had to spend a lot more money and take the additional time to remove their tranny anyway. That hex bolt is either 7 mm or 12 mm and yes it does have to come off before removing the end cover or you will break the end cover in two, just ask the guy who called me after he did exactly that. He also had to remove his tranny anyway to check bearing preload because of the new end cover he had to install. Oh yeah clean off the old sealant on both sides of the case or it will leak and only use a thin film of RTV to reseal the case. Too much will cause problems.

I think there are more issues I have heard about by either PMs or phone calls but it is 1:51 AM right now and I am tired. I don't mean to disrespect Ray, he and I get along great, but too many of our fellow members have shot them selves in the foot using this procedure. And people wonder why there are so many tanny "problems". I do not recommend it for anyone that reads the "write up" off of JRC's site (it makes it sound too easy) and/or doesn't even know how a tranny works let alone the names of the different componants. It's too risky and should only be attempted by some one exceptionally knowledgable about our specific trannys and the differences between the 5 and 6 speeds because this procedure is slightly different between the two. I believe that members will be much more satisfied with their cars if they remove the tranny from the car. It's not hard. If they run into trouble, that is what 3Si is for and not to show people how to cut corners. I wish more members would post their bad experiences with this procedure instead of just telling me about it, that way people would at least be more cautious about doing it in the first play and more careful if they did it in the second place. The experience one can gain from simpley removing the tranny and opening it up as it was designed to be done is invauluable. Don't be affriad of your trannys.

[AbsurdParadox]

You make some good points Bret, and I fully agree with them. My original method WAS meant to be a short cut, as many do not have the time/money (or whatever the excuse may be) for a full tranny pull for the OS swap. I did both, and I really did appreciate the ease of the method I posted for the sheer fact it took a matter of a couple hours, instead of a couple days. But yes, if someone CAN pull their tranny and do it the right way, they by all means should.

However, if someone DOES choose this method, they should still take their time, be patient and be gentle with everything. I do wonder if my end cover on the tranny only came off so easily because I had it off a few months before, with it out of the car. For the record though, I (or the now current owner of my vr4) never did have any problems after using this procedure, personally.

[Bret Brinkmann]

Well that is good to know. Perhaps over time I will have the chance to try this on both a 5 and 6 speed to see if I can add a few pointers my self. I know that people are going to continue to do this reguardless of what others say so we may as well try and help them prevent a nightmare.

[DoctorDex]

Here's my tip when doing this:

Run out to the store and buy a substitute input shaft lock bolt (the allen key bolt) to hammer on. I hammered on the OEM one and it bent ever so slightly. It ended up having fabricate a second input shaft lock bolt.

Torque values which may be of interest:

Transaxle case bolts - 18 ft. lbs
Input shaft allen key bolt - 70 ft. lbs (12mm)/ 25 ft lbs (7mm)
Two bolts that hold the cover plate with the springs and balls underneath - 7.5 ft lbs

I used a bit of locktite red on the input shaft allen key bolt and I used RTV around the transxaxle case, around the underside of the cover plate and around the outside portion of the black plastic cap (the allen key bolt is underneath here).

Should I have also used loctite red on the transaxle case bolts? Or does it matter?

Declan

[Bret Brinkmann]

Originally Posted by DoctorDex

Here's my tip when doing this:

Run out to the store and buy a substitute input shaft lock bolt (the allen key bolt) to hammer on. I hammered on the OEM one and it bent ever so slightly. It ended up having fabricate a second input shaft lock bolt.

Torque values which may be of interest:

Transaxle case bolts - 18 ft. lbs
Input shaft allen key bolt - 70 ft. lbs
Two bolts that hold the cover plate with the springs and balls underneath - 7.5 ft lbs

I used a bit of locktite red on the input shaft allen key bolt and I used RTV around the transxaxle case, around the underside of the cover plate and around the outside portion of the black plastic cap (the allen key bolt is underneath here).

Should I have also used loctite red on the transaxle case bolts? Or does it matter?

Declan

That 70 ft-lbs is for the 12 mm Hex bolt ONLY. The 7 mm hex bolt should be torqued to about 25 ft-lbs. It is a good idea to replace the cap once it is removed.

If you hammer on the input shaft bolt, then make sure it is threaded in several turns or the threads in the shaft itself may become damaged.

You do not need loctite on the case bolts.

[DoctorDex]

I had my case apart again this week.

Here is another tip: be very careful with the plastic oil guide. It is very weak and brittle (I guess this is what happens to 17 year old plastic). It inserts into the intermediate shaft and its base rests in the intermediate shaft bearing race, on the outer tranny case. I snapped the "nose" off of mine and now I'm going to have to wait a few weeks for new parts...

[15lbsofboost]

i got my case split finally which took like 3 hours and now theres a fucking gear covering the vcu cover what am i gona do just pry it away?? and how far to i push the pins in becuase i got them all pushed in and the cover still dont bulge can somebody please give me some help here like i need this car back on the road thanks

[DoctorDex]

Originally Posted by 15lbsofboost

i got my case split finally which took like 3 hours and now theres a fucking gear covering the vcu cover what am i gona do just pry it away?? and how far to i push the pins in becuase i got them all pushed in and the cover still dont bulge can somebody please give me some help here like i need this car back on the road thanks

Just stick a long socket extension (or something similar) in the end of the shaft and pry it (gently) away. You can push the pins in quite a way, don't worry about them getting pushed in too far.