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Old 03-20-2017, 09:11 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

I don't know much about the internal working os our trans, nor have I ever actually rebuilt one besides things like seals and bearings. My current transmission sounds like it is full or marbles and I'm tired of parts swapping shit trying to resolve the issue. I have a trans here that was pulled from a known running good car and supposedly had no issues. Signs point to the trans being rebuilt at one point but I personally never drove the car or know what it felt like. I have looked online for examples of what to look for as far as bad/worn synchros and gears but found very little if anything at all. So I took some pics of this one while disassembled and wanted opinions.

I'm waiting on new seals to come in and I still need to pull the one currently in the car to swap over the hardened output shaft. Anything else I should look for while it's apart? Can the VCU be Manually tested to see if it is blown or not?



















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Old 03-20-2017, 09:28 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

I have a thread on here detailing how to measure and inspect the various parts.

In the first picture I can already tell the synchro is worn out because it's almost touching the gear. You put a feeler gauge between the synchro and the engagement teeth while pressing the ring against the gear. It should measure 30 to 60 thousandths.

The really yellow looking synchros are either Chinese aftermarket ones or really old style originals. I would break down the shafts and replace all of them.

For the rattle you may want to check the thrust play in the input shaft. Bad bearings usually make a growl. Bad gears make a whine. Measure with a feeler gauge the gap between 5th gear and the thrust washer. Should be around 10 to 15 thousandths. Tighter seems to make less rattle.

Yes the vcu can be bench tested and it's detailed in my thread.

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Old 03-20-2017, 09:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

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Originally Posted by Forest Gump View Post
I have a thread on here detailing how to measure and inspect the various parts.

In the first picture I can already tell the synchro is worn out because it's almost touching the gear. You put a feeler gauge between the synchro and the engagement teeth while pressing the ring against the gear. It should measure 30 to 60 thousandths.

The really yellow looking synchros are either Chinese aftermarket ones or really old style originals. I would break down the shafts and replace all of them.

For the rattle you may want to check the thrust play in the input shaft. Bad bearings usually make a growl. Bad gears make a whine. Measure with a feeler gauge the gap between 5th gear and the thrust washer. Should be around 10 to 15 thousandths. Tighter seems to make less rattle.

Yes the vcu can be bench tested and it's detailed in my thread.

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I should have noted that I did contact the original owner of the trans and he stated that it was rebuilt by Mitsubishi at one point. So assuming that is why it has the older style synchro's in it.

In the first picture I think I shifted it towards the gear when taking the picture. I'll check it again tonight. I moved the ring back and forth to get pictures of both sides of the synchro.

Got a link to the thread? Guessing your mobile so I'll see if I can track it down through your profile.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

Guessing this is the thread here - 6 Speed Trans Rebuild - Pic Heavy


I'll go through it tonight and check out what I can. I don't have a press to take things apart with but will do what I can. Can you check the synchro clearances with the whole shaft still assembled or does it all need to come apart?
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo3000 View Post
Guessing this is the thread here - 6 Speed Trans Rebuild - Pic Heavy


I'll go through it tonight and check out what I can. I don't have a press to take things apart with but will do what I can. Can you check the synchro clearances with the whole shaft still assembled or does it all need to come apart?
You can check the clearances on all but 1st gear IIRC with the shafts assembled. It won't tell you if the synchro has dimples in it from the shift detent balls, but will tell you if the friction is worn badly.

Oh, I also wanted to mention you could have some rattleing if the bearing pre-loads are very loose on the counter shaft, the front pinion, or the vcu/center diff assembly.
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

Thanks I thought about the bearing preloads. It's between that and/or the input shaft bearing. Only does the ball rattling when the clutch pedal is out. Replaced the input shaft bearing with the none OEM ones everyone sells. Seeing as there really is no option for a OEM nowadays "I'm not paying $400 for a bearing". Still didn't resolve the issue. Swapped about 3 bearings out and checked preload with zero change. At this point I'm just tired of assuming what it is.fixing one thing, installing it and it still not be fixed. So I'm just going to swap until I can just rebuild the entire damn trans.
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

Could it be the throw out bearing since you say it's only when clutch peddle is out. ?
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

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Originally Posted by billyfrancis40 View Post
Could it be the throw out bearing since you say it's only when clutch peddle is out. ?

Throw out bearing is not engaged when the clutch pedal is out. Throw out bearing noise would only be when the pedal is pushed in engaging the TOB to the pressure plate.

Went though and checked the tolerances on the synchros and they were all a bit closer than what Forest had in his thread which makes sense seeing as this is used and his was new.

Main thing I noted was the holes in the VCU when the planetary gear mates has a good amount of play. I noticed the pins holding the gears in the planetary had dented. No biggie, just pound then out and flip them 180 degrees. One of the gears was stuck to the pin and just spinning in the hole. Planetary gear had heat distortion around that hole so it was getting hot!! I got all the pins out. Cleaned up and re-polished the gear and pin that sized up and reassembled with the pins in the other way. not it is just a tad bit of play which is due to the VCU holes being slightly enlarged. The pins measure at 10mm and the VCU holes are at 10.3mm. So tad off but I'll deal with it.


I have a ton of cleaning to do. Will be picking up Brake cleaner and Mineral Spirits tomorrow and start cleaning. All bolts are a bit corroded so they will need blasted, tumbled and cleaned. Debating running the housing through the blast cabinet to get them cleaned up as the aluminum is stained pretty good. Will see after I get it all cleaned up over the next few days.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

The aftermarket input bearings are junk.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Assistance needed - Visual Synchro/Gear inspection

TOB's can definitely make noise when the clutch pedal is out. However they will usually stop when the pedal is pushed even just a little bit, just enough to push the TOB against the pressure plate fingers (dont have to go all the way to disengage the clutch). If the noise doesnt stop until you have disengaged the clutch fully then it is definitely inside the trans.

Does it make the noise even when stopped at idle? Or only while moving? If it makes noise while stopped then its likely something regarding the input shaft or the few gears that free wheel on the counter shaft. If it does it only while moving then its likely something with either the counter shaft, output shaft, or front differential.
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