-= Ultimate Emanage Thread =-

[Fred 62]

I've just seen this thread !

So i have a friend in france that have a VR4 spyder with 720cc injectors and DR650 turbochagers.
he bought a E-manage Ultimate for tuning his car.
but it seems he have always the OEM MAF.

so, he give me the software version of E-manage ultimate.
it is the 1.05 version of year 2005.

on www.3SI.fr we have a forum for this piggybag.
http://www.3si-fr.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=37
buy how difficult it is to understand how to tune !


i put the differents jumpers like in original configuration.
JP1 to JP20.



so my friend have no options on the Emanage. so no sensors !
it is not possible to configure differents options in that case !

is it bad not to have Greddy sensors ?
i heard that for using A/F targett map it is necessary to use a A/F sensor !


i do not know how to tune but the car but this is my logic. purhaps bad but ...

he have the OEM MAF, so no need to modify datas in the airflow adjustment map in % !

but he have big injectors !
if he use a A/F sensor, i can use the A/F target and configure it like this :


and in parameters setting -> AF target
i can chose affected map = I/J adjustement map 1

but i do not know what is throttle position etc...
and the best will be to have a A/F mesure like A/F data table in the Emanage


and hop, an other problem !
the ECU closedloop who try to have 14.7 in A/F in low throttle

but in openloop, it is the Emanage who adjust I/J map to have A/F like A/F targetdata table ?
if so, i must force the ECU to be always in openloop.

but it said in the documentation that i must use the auxiliary output setting table !
am i obliged to put all datas of the table to "on" for having the openloop ?


perhaps i am on the wrong road !

but ignition adjust map 1 will be like this image




a lot of questions with this Emanage ultimate tuning !
and i do not know if i am in a good road or not !


thank's for yours responses.
sorry for my english

@+
fred

[Fred 62]

and an other question with the knock sensor !

ecu location:


in the documentation, it said :

JP13 Knock Signal Input 1 / Water Temp Sensor
This jumper will configure pin 32 channel in the Connector C (14 pin connector).
Set to “OPEN” for Normal type (when used for knock sensor), and “1-2” for pull-up Type
(for temp sensor).

JP14 Knock Signal Input 2 / Intake Temp Sensor
This jumper will configure pin 38 channel in the Connector C (14 pin connector).
Set to “OPEN” for Normal type (when used for knock sensor), and “1-2” for pull-up Type
(for temp sensor).

so if i use water and temperature sensors ( type configured in the parameter setting when you enter the code engine 6G72 )
it is not possible to use knock signal !

what signals are the more important ?
knock, water or intake temperature ??


thank's
@+
fred

[BlackStealth]

If you want to remove the OEM MAF, then you need a greddy pressure sensor to switch over to speed denisty. I would not recommend subsituting the greddy pressure sensor to save a few bucks as the GM sensor for example represents data in a different way. This would only create an unnecessary headache when tuning.

If you want to use the A/F target map, you need stage 3 wiring done, and a wideband o2 controller hooked up. When you create your own AF target map , anywhere 14.7 AFR is listed put a '-' in there. The factory closed loop circuit will get the job done. I would only provide AFR entries that are richer than 14.7 (below 14.7 AFR).

There's no need to override the factory closed loop circuit that you described earlier by manipulating throttle position sensor, etc. This is an advanced feature that should only be used after you setup your initial AFR target table, and only if you're ECU is giving you trouble.

There's no way to program that ignition table map in the emanage. Instead what you can do is datalog timing and compare that to the chart. If the timing is too much, you can subtract the excess timing in emanage's timing map.

The optional "intake temperature" or "water temperature" are not needed on our cars. Those are for cars that have trouble running correctly after being modded. The optional "knock sensor" wiring could be useful for those that can't datalog knock already.

[Fred 62]

Originally Posted by BlackStealth

If you want to remove the OEM MAF, then you need a greddy pressure sensor to switch over to speed denisty. I would not recommend subsituting the greddy pressure sensor to save a few bucks as the GM sensor for example represents data in a different way. This would only create an unnecessary headache when tuning.

i don't know if my friend will remove the OEM MAF !
what is the best deal for you concerning a tuning of 3000GT VR4 ?
using OEM MAF or Greddy pressure sensor ?

http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/pre...sor/index.html
this is the pressure sensor's spec
this spec represent pressure/voltage but OEM MAF represent air flow rate / frequency.

in fact it is able to change the OEM MAF by an other more big when you use
ARC2 to tune the car with big turbochargers, FMIC and injectors.
in that case you have always a signal airflow/frequency.
but characteristics must be different in frequency at a fixed airflow !
so i was going to use airflow adj map for the tune of the car.

but removing OEM MAF and using pressure sensor,
i don't know how to tune in the Emanage.
you should not use the airflow adj map in that case because the spec of the
2 sensors are really differents !

help me please
is it not restrictive to use OEM MAF with DR650 and 720CC ?
what is the best way for you.

If you want to use the A/F target map, you need stage 3 wiring done, and a wideband o2 controller hooked up.

it is done for the stage 3 wiring.

and for the wideband o2 controller i tell him to buy this sensor if it is not done in the car.

When you create your own AF target map , anywhere 14.7 AFR is listed put a '-' in there.

like this :

The factory closed loop circuit will get the job done.
I would only provide AFR entries that are richer than 14.7 (below 14.7 AFR).

can you explain me that please.
is it like the A/F table on the upper post ?

There's no need to override the factory closed loop circuit that you described earlier by manipulating throttle position sensor, etc. This is an advanced feature that should only be used after you setup your initial AFR target table, and only if you're ECU is giving you trouble.

ok !

There's no way to program that ignition table map in the emanage.
Instead what you can do is datalog timing and compare that to the chart.
If the timing is too much, you can subtract the excess timing in emanage's timing map.

so the best way is to do a datalog timing etc... with a stock 3000GT in all
mods of fonctionnement ( low, load, high = idle to WOT )
and to compare with the modified 3000GT.
if timing is not good with the stock spec, i modify timing in the tada table.

a link for ignition :
http://www.stealth316.com/2-ignitionsystem.htm

and i must do attention with KNOCK signal, isn't it ?
if the are knock i must reduce ignition advance no ?

The optional "intake temperature" or "water temperature" are not needed on our cars.
Those are for cars that have trouble running correctly after being modded. The optional "knock sensor" wiring could be useful for those that can't datalog knock already.

ok, i am happy to read this
so i can use a knock sensor for the logger of the E-manage ultimate
in order to midify ignition signal if the are Knock.




BlackStealth,

sorry for questions that can be stupid.
i think it could be a big deal to use Emanage and not boost controller + ARC2.
but i am a ultra begginner for understanding all datas to tune a car.
and french communauty have not your experience like in the US.
thank you very much for your response



EDIT :
i think when reading the thread, that i must do some things :
- buying an A/F PLX M300 wideband Greddy for OPTION2
- using a greddy pressure sensor for OPTION1

but you said that with greddy MAP sensor (4 bar). it is possible to remove OEM MAF. is it a greddy pressure map ?. have you the product reference ?
and then i must use airflow output map in the emanage. !

but if i remove the OEM, on the connector there are 2 others sensors :
- volume airflow sensor will remove
- intake air temperature IAT will change by GM reference in the image P3 of the thread
- barrométric pressure sensor will fix with resistor of 1K and 4K see Page 3 of the thread
and IAT must be placed just directly before the throttle body

i learn more informations hours after hours.





@+
fred

[VR4neophyte]

i am a ultra begginner for understanding all datas to tune a car

Fred, you are talking about trying some very advanced things (running speed density, using the target A/F map, raw knock signal monitoring). As an ultra beginner, I recommend you start with a basic setup and learn more about tuning before trying these. Without a strong understanding of tuning data, you could damage the engine or the E-Manage Ultimate very easily.

With your beginner understanding of tuning, it makes sense to start by using the OEM MAF and the Airflow Adjustment Map. This will allow the car to run very well, and allow you to learn much more about tuning. This will also allow you to learn about datalogging with the EMU. Being very familiar with tuning and logging is a requirement before trying speed density.

is it not restrictive to use OEM MAF with DR650 and 720CC ?
what is the best way for you.

With our cars and the EMU, you have two choices:

1) Run the stock airflow meter (OEM MAF as you call it) - this is what I recommend. The EMU comes ready to support this. After installation, just set up the parameters and airflow adjustment map to compensate for your larger injectors, and setup the logger to capture data. Nothing could be simpler. The only problem is the restrictive nature of the stock airflow meter at high RPM, but it would be fine while you are learning.

OR...

2) Remove the stock airflow meter and run speed density - this requires true tuning expertise, and I don't recommend it for you yet. To run speed density, you will need to remove the stock airflow meter, then add the Greddy pressure sensor, resistors, an intake air temperature sensor, and a wideband O2 sensor. Then you'll need to create a base map, and input it to the Airflow Output Map. By eliminating the stock airflow meter, you eliminate the intake restriction, but you must be quite advanced in your understanding of tuning to do this.

You keep talking about the ARC2 and the associated MAF, but there is no reason to use the ARC2 if you are using the EMU. Choose one and sell the other. The EMU doesn't support the use of the MAF that comes with the ARC2. Some have talked about using both the ARC2 and the EMU together, but this would be quite complex, and would require an expert understanding of tuning. And it probably wouldn't work as well anyway. I evaluated doing this myself, and have everything needed to try it, but I see no advantage and several disadvantages.

Of course we'll continue to answer questions here, but I recommend starting with the stock airflow meter until you become a tuning expert.

Erik

[Fred 62]

Originally Posted by VR4neophyte

Fred, you are talking about trying some very advanced things (running speed density, using the target A/F map, raw knock signal monitoring). As an ultra beginner, I recommend you start with a basic setup and learn more about tuning before trying these. Without a strong understanding of tuning data, you could damage the engine or the E-Manage Ultimate very easily.

you have absolutely right !
in fact it is a friend who have the E-manage.
i could be interessted later for my car but actually whe don't know how to tune the car with the e-manage.
i have more knoledge with boost controller SBC specR and ARC2 !

i know i can damage the engine !
and that is a big problem !

With your beginner understanding of tuning, it makes sense to start by using the OEM MAF and the Airflow Adjustment Map. This will allow the car to run very well, and allow you to learn much more about tuning. This will also allow you to learn about datalogging with the EMU. Being very familiar with tuning and logging is a requirement before trying speed density.

i am OK with you.
i would like doing the same fonctionnement of ARC2 in the EMU.
- using the OEM ( original Equipment Model ) MAF
- using 720cc injectors
- and using airflow ajustment map for tuning the car and control A/F to a good value.

and you have right for dataloggin.

With our cars and the EMU, you have two choices:

1) Run the stock airflow meter (OEM MAF as you call it) - this is what I recommend. The EMU comes ready to support this. After installation, just set up the parameters and airflow adjustment map to compensate for your larger injectors, and setup the logger to capture data. Nothing could be simpler. The only problem is the restrictive nature of the stock airflow meter at high RPM, but it would be fine while you are learning.

ok, it is the right road
thank's

OR...

2) Remove the stock airflow meter and run speed density - this requires true tuning expertise, and I don't recommend it for you yet. To run speed density, you will need to remove the stock airflow meter, then add the Greddy pressure sensor, resistors, an intake air temperature sensor, and a wideband O2 sensor. Then you'll need to create a base map, and input it to the Airflow Output Map. By eliminating the stock airflow meter, you eliminate the intake restriction, but you must be quite advanced in your understanding of tuning to do this.

ok with this !

You keep talking about the ARC2 and the associated MAF, but there is no reason to use the ARC2 if you are using the EMU. Choose one and sell the other. The EMU doesn't support the use of the MAF that comes with the ARC2. Some have talked about using both the ARC2 and the EMU together, but this would be quite complex, and would require an expert understanding of tuning. And it probably wouldn't work as well anyway. I evaluated doing this myself, and have everything needed to try it, but I see no advantage and several disadvantages.

for me you have the choise between boost controller + ARC2 or EMU+e01

Of course we'll continue to answer questions here, but I recommend starting with the stock airflow meter until you become a tuning expert.

you see, my friend bought his car with RD650 and 7200cc I/J.
he bought the E-manage to R-tec in switzerland but he dont' know
how to use the EMU even if there are a forum on www.3SI.fr

i am a moderator on this forum and i keep he a hand because he run with
0.5bar of boost presure with DR650.

he bought harness for stage 3 directely. when reading this thread 2 days before,
i understant that it is not nécessary to tune a lot of maps.
i am not a specialist and it is difficult to tune a car directly by the way of
airflow maps, injection maps and timing maps.

so i learn more and more and this is great for the future.
but for the moment i will do that you are saying !

- use the stock MAF
- install a A/F sensor
- use the 720cc injectors
- use the airflow ajustment map
- no cutting ignition and injectors signals
- using the datalogg of the EMU and control the knock with a palm

and an other question :

Originally Posted by VR4neophyte

I've just read the Operation Manual cover to cover. Tell me if I've got this right... if I want to do speed density, I need to choose my two Options as GReddy Pressure Sensor and A/F Sensor. I can choose no other options. But to do launch control, I need to choose the External Switch as one of my options. That seems to say you can't do both Speed Density and Launch Control... is that right?

what is launch control and speed density when removing the stock MAF ?
i lack his terms !
what does it mean ?

question 2 :

if i remove the MAf, i must use the MAP sensor 4bar, ok !
but where do i place this sensor in the car.
at the intake, after the air filter ?
at the cold air intercoller piping ?
at the intercooler Y pipe ?
have you the reference of the greddy sensor ?

Erik

thank's a lot erik.

@+
fred

[VR4neophyte]

Launch control is a rev limiter. It establishes a limit on maximum RPM for when the car is not moving. This is useful for holding a constant engine speed during drag racing launches.

It is completely separate from the decision to use speed density.

Erik

[BlackStealth]

I agree, you should first tune with your factory OEM MAF and get everything working smoothly first. Leave the ARC2 out. Once you are satisified with your tune, datalog the pressure sensor readings and RPM readings. Use this data to construct the Airflow output map. You can use mine as an example (550cc injectors) to see what it should look like in general. For 720cc, the airflow numbers will report smaller HZ values than mine. Once your new airflow output map is complete, switch over to speed density. Now you can proceed to removing the factory MAF, or just remove the honeycombs inside to remove the restriction. When running speed density one should use resistors to "FIX" the barometer readings since the pressure sensor is already compensating this.

Don't worry about the pressure sensor specifications. Emanage converts it to HZ signal.

If you don't have a wideband controller purchased yet make sure it is linear so Emanage can use it. I'd recommend the Innovative LC1 ($199 or less).

Now let's discuss o2 feedback. Since our car only comes with narrowband o2 sensors, it is limited to 14.7 AFR. The narrowband o2 feedback circuit is only applicable to this AFR. For all other AFR ratios this narrowband o2 feedback circuit must be turned off or else it will cause us problems. Especially at wide open throttle where the AFR can be for example 11.0 AFR. All the regions on the map where the narrowband o2 is not applicable we can use the wideband o2 results. By creating a AFR target map, the emanage can read the wideband o2 results and take appropriate action (wether to lean the mixture or richen). When emanage takes action, this is considered a wideband o2 feedback circuit.

Now that we have two feedback circuits, narrowband and wideband it is important that both circuits don't fight each other. We can turn off the wideband feedback circuit by placing a "-" in the entry table. Turning off the narrowband feedback circuit is not really possible. You can, but I'll leave it out as it is an advanced topic. Personally, I'd only use the wideband o2 feedback circuit for part throttle (where AFR is not 14.7) all the way to full throttle. Also, don't use it in the regions where the AFR is greater than 14.7 as it's not necessary.

Timing: I assume you're tuning for pump gas. Ideally, I'd reinstall the stock injectors in with all the mods and datalog your timing. This way you'll know what normal timing data should look like. Reinstall the 720cc injectors, and use the timing map to remove the excess timing in the appropriate areas. Timing is power, so you'll probably want a little more than what the factory specified. If you're gonna run race gas, you're gonna want more timing so the correction won't have to be as severe.

If you have a 91-95 car, I'd would prefer to use the tradional way of reading knock through a OBDI or OBD-Hybrid datalogger. Yes you can datalog knock on the emanage, but it requires extra work as the data reported is just raw knock voltage and needs to be filtered as discussed earlier in this thread. When I tune, if my AFR is fine and I have knock then I'll adjust timing otherwise I first adjust my AFR.

I just noticed you edited your original reply. Several wideband o2 controllers work on the emanage. The two that don't work are "zeitronics, and AEM" as they are non-linear.

You other question is in regard to the speed density. Yes, there's a barometic sensor, and IAT. If you simply remove the honeycomb screen on the factory MAF, you only have to address the barometric sensor problem by replacing it with resistors. If you remove the factory MAF completely, then you'll have to wire in a GM IAT, and also use resistors to give a fixed signal to the barometric input.

[BlackStealth]

The greddy map sensor should be placed where you can read both vacuum and boost. I have mined 'T' into the fuel pressure regulator vaccum hose. Note, my fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose has been rerouted to a direct source and is no longer interupted by the fuel pressure solenoid.

[VR4neophyte]

Originally Posted by BlackStealth

Once you are satisified with your tune, datalog the pressure sensor readings and RPM readings. Use this data to construct the Airflow output map. You can use mine as an example (550cc injectors) to see what it should look like in general. For 720cc, the airflow numbers will report smaller HZ values than mine.

This is a place where I'm a bit confused. What values should go in the Airflow Output Table, and what values will be reported on the EMU datalogger? (Assumptions: Stage 3 wiring, main injector corrected (before = 360, after = 720), stock airflow meter.) Will the airflow hz in the table and on the logger be the true unmolested numbers, or will they be adjusted for the injectors? My impression was that it would be the former, but I'm hearing you say the values will be adjusted for injector size.

Erik