Hydrogen Generator/Hydrogen Injection Systems

[David_J]

Here is a quote on the subject from JPL..."The 2nd law of thermodynamics is a likely source of those doubts. Meaning ...the law -would lead you to believe that it will certainly take more power to produce this hydrogen than can be regained by burning it in the engine. i.e. the resulting energy balance should be negative. If the aim is to create hydrogen by electrolysis to be burned as a fuel, the concept is ridiculous."

So, it comes down to does the addition of H2 in the low volumes that could be created by electrolysis (in comparison to the liters of air that are flowing through the engine each cycle) cause a significant increase in combustion efficiency. I would suggest that a tail pipe smog test with and without would be a good starting point. If hydrocarbon emissions don't decrease at idle, it is unlikely that they would at higher rpm (lower H2 to air mixture).

[David_J]

Doing a bit more research...the work that is being done on this at universities is still early and they are not adding H2 to the air stream but have to create a high temperature upstream plasma heat source and add the H2 into the liquid fuel stream to create a homogeneous fuel...when they do that, they get 20-30% better combustion efficiency.

Green Car Congress: Hydrogen-Enhanced Combustion Engine Could Improve Gasoline Fuel Economy by 20% to 30%

It also requires an increase of 2x the air, so I suspect that the engine components have been changed to handle some really high temps due to the extremely "lean" conditions.

[DBLerman]

David J, thank you. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only who would present scientific facts to shoot down this crazy idea. Unfortunately, if DANTHEVR4MAN couldn't grasp the laws of thermodynamics back in post #28, I fear he may never.

[David_J]

Originally Posted by DBLerman

David J, thank you. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only who would present scientific facts to shoot down this crazy idea. Unfortunately, if DANTHEVR4MAN couldn't grasp the laws of thermodynamics back in post #28, I fear he may never.

The fact is that all the serious research in this area starts with a statement that it takes more energy to make the hydrogen than you get out of burning it. The real interesting stuff is what hydrogen does to the combustion process to make it more complete.

Based on what I have read so far, we have some serious science that says it is true under some really well defined, expensive laboratory conditions (custom built engines). Then some company mixes some of the truth with some of their greed and ends up with an over stated and over sold DIY kit. Good science, questionable execution.

[David_J]

PS one of the serious issues with a DIY kit is where is the H2 injected. It cannot be exposed to temperatures above a couple hundred degrees or see any sparks prior to when it is suppose to reassociate with the O2 in the intake charge. Someone may know better, but my guess is that requires direct cylinder injection.

[DBLerman]

I think the biggest issue is whether or not you can even produce enough H2 running off a 14v source to make ANY difference (let alone a 30-60% increase in efficiency). From my experience I would say it is highly unlikely.

[DANTHEVR4MAN]

Originally Posted by David_J

The fact is that all the serious research in this area starts with a statement that it takes more energy to make the hydrogen than you get out of burning it. The real interesting stuff is what hydrogen does to the combustion process to make it more complete.

Based on what I have read so far, we have some serious science that says it is true under some really well defined, expensive laboratory conditions (custom built engines). Then some company mixes some of the truth with some of their greed and ends up with an over stated and over sold DIY kit. Good science, questionable execution.

It is not that I don't understand the law its just like david has stated. While it may be in a different manner it is possible without breaking the law. Whether the DIY will work I will see for myself.
The injection I have seen seems to always be in the y pipe, and they use a flashback arrester to prevent a flashback from coming back through the system. But I think it will be a fun summer project at the very least if it doesn't work its no real loss to me. Thanks for the constructive/informative info.
I still cant believe someone gave me a negative rep for starting this thread.

[DANTHEVR4MAN]

Originally Posted by DBLerman

I think the biggest issue is whether or not you can even produce enough H2 running off a 14v source to make ANY difference (let alone a 30-60% increase in efficiency). From my experience I would say it is highly unlikely.

Yeah I am seriously doubting the major claims such as that but even if its possible to get 10% increase lol im going to be paying like 80-90$ a fill up

[DANTHEVR4MAN]

I sent this guy a message hes got an extreme setup if it is real. But he is one of the only people I have seen doing it with a turbo setup

Posted by: charles | Aug 25, 2007 1:18:55 PM

I designed a 3liter inline 6 twin turbocharged intercooled HYDROInjection, with no throttle, 12 injectors, and 425 hp. NO PETROL. ALL HYDROGEN. patent pending.

it uses 2 CT20 Ceramic Turbochargers designed by toyota
12 750CC injectors that are programmed with a homemade ECU
The TPS (throttle position sensor) was relocated to the pedal, injectors are placed on intake runner. There are 4 alternators placed on the DRIVESHAFT, and located in in trunk running off of the drive shaft. The hydroinjection is used right after the exhaust stroke to decrease cylinder temperature and predetination substantially. I installed a 54mm choke that only turns on <55degree ambient temp. Hydrogen production is less that satisfactory if vehicle is driven for short distance (Can fill a 10 kilo tank in about 2 1/2 hours. The engine was sleeved, never blown a cylinder.

o, and the base engine block I used was a 2jz-GTTE twin turbo from Toyota.

[DANTHEVR4MAN]

Originally Posted by DBLerman

No harmful gases from NaOH. If I remember correctly the reason NaHCO3 is a poor choice compared to the hydroxides is because the reaction is something like 2NaHCO3 --> H20 + Na2CO3 + CO2 and you will be producing H2 and CO2, with virtually all of your H2 coming from the water. With the hydroxides, you will be gaining some H2 from them as well and this will increase your output, but not by much. There are even better choices than the hydroxides, but they are harder to obtain and more expensive.

As for the electrodes, don't use steel. I suggest platinum, they will last a long long time, steel will last a few hours.
You can buy them here:
ELECTRODE PAIR, PLATINUM, SPARE

If you want something cheaper, you can also try graphite, although it won't hold up as well as the platinum.

DB what do you think of using this electrolyte
Adding pure ammonia NH3 to the water in the winter will keep the system from freezing and actually enhance hydrogen production. That's three hydrogens per nitrogen and releases just as easily under electrolysis. Make sure you don't use ammonia with additives though.