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Old 10-29-2009, 03:48 PM   #571 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevep View Post
I'm also a little fuzzy on where your getting a $169 cable from. If your thinking about a OpenPort 2.0 cable, that only applies to the 98/99 ECU programming. You need a Moates Ostrich and this board to do the 91-96 along with your current datalogger.
Yes, the OpenPort 2.0 cable. For some reason it's in my head that this daughter board would be reflashed through an installed standard reflash port like the 98/99 have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevep View Post
I don't think the board will change anything as far as the cable required to talk to the ECU. So if you have a 94/95 you will still need the obd 2 cable and the software to talk to that ECU. I thought I read that people were having luck with the 1.3 openport cable and EVOScan on the "hybrid" ECUs.
Yes, the 1.3 openport works with EvoScan on the hybrid ECUs. I've done it on two of them (95s). The logging cable is also irrelevant to flashing the ECU, since it does nothing but log. There's a separate plug that performs the flashing; it's the white one seen here: http://tunertools.com/prodimages/Tac...1.3M_large.png

The receptacle for that reflash port would have to be installed by us; which I think would just go straight into the daughter board that ECMlink is making. I'm really hoping that's what it is, because if this is a chip that you have to hop all around to reflash, it's probably not worth it to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevep View Post
Again I'll admonish. Re-flash means something specific that to the best of my understanding isn't part of the plan. This daughter board would make the Factory ECU programmable. You have the rest right, for now. There are lots of interesting tuning things you can do once you have full access to the code.
Reflash simply means to reprogram the ECU, which is what this would allow. Like ECUFlash with the evo ECU, or with the 98/99 VR4s. A reflash is not a real-time ECU modification. Evos are only capable of it on stock ECU through DMA hacks to the ECU that allow access while the car is running.

I don't think any of us are expecting that from this solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevep View Post
The cables might but I haven't managed to get EVOscan (or any other software) to work with the 95/96 DSM ECUs and my 1.3U cable.
Make sure the pins on the OBD port on the 95 match what the evoscan cable has. Also make sure the drivers are correct, you're using the correct protocol, etc. A 96 should be standard OBDII and have no issues; my guess leans towards drivers/wrong protocol based on past experience, but not specifically with DSMs.

Can anybody clarify the specifics of what this is going to do? If it's a hardware chip we have to remove to reflash, or it's going to be another year before it's ready, I'm going to go down a different route; but if it's a regular flashable board through the "normal" reflashing methods we use today, I'll wait.
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Old 10-29-2009, 04:36 PM   #572 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

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Originally Posted by jba3 View Post
Yes, the OpenPort 2.0 cable. For some reason it's in my head that this daughter board would be reflashed through an installed standard reflash port like the 98/99 have.

Yes, the 1.3 openport works with EvoScan on the hybrid ECUs. I've done it on two of them (95s). The logging cable is also irrelevant to flashing the ECU, since it does nothing but log.

The receptacle for that reflash port would have to be installed by us; which I think would just go straight into the daughter board that ECMlink is making. I'm really hoping that's what it is, because if this is a chip that you have to hop all around to reflash, it's probably not worth it to me.
I don't know where you got that impression. I don't believe Tom ever said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twdorris View Post
The best we can do is to offer an EPROM conversion package that would allow you to use generic, off-the-shelf type products like an Ostrich from Moates and a few freeware tools (loggers and editors and such) to do your own EPROM editing.

Thomas Dorris
Quote:
Originally Posted by jba3 View Post
Reflash simply means to reprogram the ECU, which is what this would allow. Like ECUFlash with the evo ECU, or with the 98/99 VR4s. A reflash is not a real-time ECU modification. Evos are only capable of it on stock ECU through DMA hacks to the ECU that allow access while the car is running.

I don't think any of us are expecting that from this solution.

If it's a hardware chip we have to remove to reflash, or it's going to be another year before it's ready, I'm going to go down a different route; but if it's a regular flashable board through the "normal" reflashing methods we use today, I'll wait.
Flash is a specific type of Electrically Erasable Programmable Memory. I'm harping on this point because you seem to think that this solution will support that sort of reprogramming and I don't believe that to be the case. I don't think there is any plan to support EEPROM or Flash parts and maybe even write cycles to the socket. So wiring up the connector isn't in the picture.

I'm under the impression that this board will give you the equivalent to a 1G or 2G DSM EPROM ECU as far as functionality.

If your looking to reflash using an openport cable you need to convert to a 98/99 ECU.
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:50 PM   #573 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

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Originally Posted by stevep View Post
I don't know where you got that impression. I don't believe Tom ever said that.
Here's a few random snippets:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealthxtreme4 View Post
This is flash. You would be flashing the chip that would be added to the board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by donniekak View Post
You don't get a programmed chip. You get a special chip on your board that you can totally control every parameter with through your diagnostic port and a laptop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Sfever View Post
2) some kind of harness that connects the ecu to a laptop to do the actual “flashing”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twdorris View Post
I do want to point out again that this isn't a $600 alternative. Our target here is a $200 alternative, plus the cost of an Ostrich. At this point in time, we're not considering a full ECMLink like solution. We're looking at more of an ECUFlash type solution.

Thomas Dorris
ECUFlash connects with the OpenPort 2.0 cable and reflashes. Thomas said "an ECUFlash type solution". Plugging and unplugging chips and fumbling with hardware is not similar to ECUFlash, in my mind at least. It's also not worth the cost savings vs an emanage blue, which while it's a bit more wires, doesn't involve anything more than connecting a cable to make changes.

Am I completely off based with what I expected this to be?
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:57 PM   #574 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

Quote:
Am I completely off based with what I expected this to be?
Sadly, yes.

Even a 98-current ECU won't allow 'real time' changes. You still need to log, decide what you're going to change, edit the file in ECUFlash, park the car, shut it off, upload, repeat. You can hack the Evo ECUs to do it, but it's still not as robust as an emulator solution.

It's not all bad though. If you get one of these daughter cards like Tom is proposing, and you get an Ostrich EPROM emulator (total cost for both will still hopefully be under $400) you CAN make real time changes to the file.

The emulator is just that. It emulates an EPROM using a form of high speed RAM. You can make changes to it without shutting down the engine. Once you've settled on your final tune, then you burn a chip, install it in place of the emulator, and drive your 'stock' car.

So at that point you'd also need a chip burner of some sort, which can be had on ebay very cheap. I've got one, and I'll happily burn chips for anyone provided you pay shipping and provide your own tune. I'm not interested in getting in the business of mail order tuning

I'm just getting fed up with burning chips for my Techtom and dealing with their data scrambling bullshit. I'm not going to buy two ostriches to do emulation tuning, especially since I'd still have the scramble crap to deal with.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:29 PM   #575 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatecrasher View Post
Sadly, yes.

Even a 98-current ECU won't allow 'real time' changes. You still need to log, decide what you're going to change, edit the file in ECUFlash, park the car, shut it off, upload, repeat. You can hack the Evo ECUs to do it, but it's still not as robust as an emulator solution.

It's not all bad though. If you get one of these daughter cards like Tom is proposing, and you get an Ostrich EPROM emulator (total cost for both will still hopefully be under $400) you CAN make real time changes to the file.

The emulator is just that. It emulates an EPROM using a form of high speed RAM. You can make changes to it without shutting down the engine. Once you've settled on your final tune, then you burn a chip, install it in place of the emulator, and drive your 'stock' car.

So at that point you'd also need a chip burner of some sort, which can be had on ebay very cheap. I've got one, and I'll happily burn chips for anyone provided you pay shipping and provide your own tune. I'm not interested in getting in the business of mail order tuning

I'm just getting fed up with burning chips for my Techtom and dealing with their data scrambling bullshit. I'm not going to buy two ostriches to do emulation tuning, especially since I'd still have the scramble crap to deal with.
I don't expect the real time changes at all. The "normal" log, adjust maps, flash ecu, turn on car, drive, log, shut off, rinse, repeat cycle is exactly what I expect with this. I don't expect any real time changes, just the "normal" tuning way ... I would be ECSTATIC with a solution like that and I'd take two. To me, that's a "flashable" ECU; maybe we're thinking the same thing and I'm using terms differently?

Where I'm getting lost is, do we have to physically remove a chip from the daughterboard (or whatever), place that chip in an adapter, "burn" a modified tune to it, remove it from the adapter, reinstall it in the car .... then drive? Like you're doing with the TechTom?

I guess the best way of asking, is if we can just reflash afterwards ... how is the connection from the software on our laptop to the car in order the reflash established? OpenPort 2 cable? Custom ECMlink cable? That's the grey area for me right now that stevep is confusing me on.

I promise I'm not a complete tech moron. I got the openport 2.0 logger via microsd working, and I'm reviewing the log now to see what looks wacky since some things are definitely off. I'm just fuzzy on how the actual tuning/reprogramming is going to happen with this.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:54 PM   #576 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

Nobody ever said you were a moron

I'm sure Thomas will correct me if I'm wrong, but the way that I understand their ECMLink to work is that they have a battery backed static RAM on their add-on boards. Their cables (NOT OpenPort cables) interface with a controller on the board, and in turn they update the static RAM directly, in real time. Their custom controller basically emulates an EPROM like the stock ECU would normally expect to see.

They're not willing to go to those lengths for us. That's fine. I understand this little niche market isn't worth the resources. What they're talking about is providing just enough logic to allow the stock ECU to talk to a normal EPROM socket. Whether you do the 'log/burn chip/repeat' process or buy an emulator is up to you.

At least with the emulator you'd still have to burn a 'final' tune when you're all done making changes. Then you unplug the laptop and emulator and put them away. You're still using the laptop with a ECMLink and OpenPort solutions.

Compared to a 'flash' solution, you need some more parts. But you gain real time tuning! I'd take that over a stock flash solution any day.

But I'm beginning to lose hope. They said September, they said October, they said 'fall' and here we are heading into November/winter and we still haven't seen so much as a prototype.

I'm considering other options at this point, even though I'd prefer theirs. I don't think it's unfair or disrespectful to ask for some sort of more realistic date and/or some sign of progress at this point.
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:01 PM   #577 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

They were pretty busy with the release of their Evo's stuff I think! I still have hope for this winter.

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Old 10-29-2009, 08:45 PM   #578 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jba3 View Post
Here's a few random snippets:

Quote:
Originally Posted by twdorris View Post
I do want to point out again that this isn't a $600 alternative. Our target here is a $200 alternative, plus the cost of an Ostrich. At this point in time, we're not considering a full ECMLink like solution. We're looking at more of an ECUFlash type solution.

Thomas Dorris
ECUFlash connects with the OpenPort 2.0 cable and reflashes. Thomas said "an ECUFlash type solution". Plugging and unplugging chips and fumbling with hardware is not similar to ECUFlash, in my mind at least. It's also not worth the cost savings vs an emanage blue, which while it's a bit more wires, doesn't involve anything more than connecting a cable to make changes.

Am I completely off based with what I expected this to be?
Of your quotes only the one from Tom is meaningful, but you bolded the wrong part which I corrected. It's the use of the Ostrich that makes this anything like ECUFlash. The Ostrich uses USB to the laptop not an openport cable. If you don't use the Ostrich then your burning chips and plugging them in.

Hopefully I've stopped confusing you now.

Last edited by stevep; 10-29-2009 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:51 AM   #579 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

Correct.

If you do NOT use an ostrich (eprom emulator) then you have to pull the chip, burn, replace the chip, start the car back up and drive (hard if it's hidden in the ecu and all bolted in the car where it's supposed to go).

If you USE an ostrich, then you can make changes in realtime and burn off a final image just like gate was saying once you had the whole car tuned.

So for an extra $200 it's more than worth it to buy the ostrich.

To burn the eprom you will need an eprom burner which usually connects to your computer via a USB AND Parallel port cable.

It's not the end of the world, but it's a PAIN to carry all that stuff around with you in the car, it's like you setup a tuning shop inside of your car. Especially with techtom's scramble algorithm that you basically have to make a secondary step to use.

The 98-99 solution would require the openport cable and shutting the car down to reflash, which would take a few seconds/minutes (not sure, I haven't done it on these cars before) and then you could start up and get going again. So it's not a realtime change (which could theoretically be done with the right programming) but it gets the job done without having a burner in the car.

This product with an ostrich would be the best of both worlds as you could update it in real time (especially helpful on a dyno) and you don't have to shut down the car to update the ECU.
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Old 10-30-2009, 08:14 AM   #580 (permalink)
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Default Re: DSM Link for the 3/S - Use your stock ECU to tune.

Personally I'd be satisfied with injector scaling alone, that is compensate for larger injectors at the EEPROM and be done with it. Then use your existing piggyback to make minor tweaks in real time. With bulk of the correction done at the ECU level, your car will drive like stock with correct timing numbers.
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