13G vs. 13C Turbos

[lawdogg]

The only way to make a statistically accurate comparison is to sample the population of 13g applications and sample the population of 13t applications, and then compare your bell curves.

There are so many variables when comparing two different turbos at the same pressure. Temperature, air density, heat soak'd intercoolers, timing advance, skill of driver, hell even headwind vs. tailwind will alter the results of such a comparison.

If we can use this thread as home base to gather #'s for the population comparison, sure. But finding two different cars holding the exact same boost through the RPM range, shifting at the exact same points, with the exact same 60's and exact same AFR's and timing advance through the ENTIRE run, except one is running 13g's and the other 13t's is not something I ever see happening.

[Kibwe Walker]

I have no doubt of Jacks times or even 13g potential, I am just looking for my own numbers and 1 dyno would do it for me.

When playing with automatics or whatever trapspeed can be fairly consistent since it removes the human factor/error out of the equation. On the other hand with manuals trapspeed can be effected greatly by the drivers shift method and speed especially with a TC'ed car.

Trap speed is a indicator of your AVG hp over the 1320 but the more time you spend shifting can have a effect on that average. Lift to shift and what not. Also various locations will have a effect on trap speed with the amount of boost being run too in that 17 psi at 4k ft isn't the same as 17 psi at sea level and that will effect trap speed and power. I wish it were that simple but there still are alot of variables.

What I am driving at here though is a simple bolt on setup. I can't find ANY dynos, time slips (ET. or TRAP), that show a 13g car with simple bolt ons making what 13t's and 15g's do even at lower boost levels where they are suppose to be equivalent. Why is that? IDK, maybe because most 13g's out there are bastardized versions without the L turbine.

I just want 1 objective number showing a 4xx AWHP from anywhere on the planet on a stock engine, stock cams, bolt on 13g's, FP, inj's, intake, and exhaust because thats all it takes for 13t's and 15g's to get over 400 to the wheels and thats all it takes to see 116+ traps. Not that I haven't seen traps like that from 13g's but 100% of the time there is some other engine modification (heads, cams, compression), or even nitrous. Have you found any because there have to be some even across the pond where some Euro specs came stock with 13g's.

[Kibwe Walker]

Originally Posted by lawdogg

The only way to make a statistically accurate comparison is to sample the population of 13g applications and sample the population of 13t applications, and then compare your bell curves.

There are so many variables when comparing two different turbos at the same pressure. Temperature, air density, heat soak'd intercoolers, timing advance, skill of driver, hell even headwind vs. tailwind will alter the results of such a comparison.

If we can use this thread as home base to gather #'s for the population comparison, sure. But finding two different cars holding the exact same boost through the RPM range, shifting at the exact same points, with the exact same 60's and exact same AFR's and timing advance through the ENTIRE run, except one is running 13g's and the other 13t's is not something I ever see happening.

Man we must have been on the same wavelength for a sec or two there.

[lawdogg]

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

Man we must have been on the same wavelength for a sec or two there.

Great minds!

[Kibwe Walker]

Don't know about great but I am aspiring, one day.

[lawdogg]

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

Don't know about great but I am aspiring, one day.

Well you're way ahead of me, man.

Anyway.

Who has a 13G car around here? Let's see who has what mods, set the boost at 17psi, and RACE FOR PINKS!

[Kibwe Walker]

Off topic

That show is horrible.

Yeah you beat by 10 carlengths on that last run so I am going to need 11 carlengths so I got a shot and we are racing for slips.

PUCK THAT. Run what you brung, start at this line and 1320' later we will see who calls a cab. I wouldn't bring anything out there I wouldn't mind losing though (foxbody and run through Jegs, and Summit seems reasonable and cheap). That and I am not giving a inch.

[lawdogg]

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

Off topic

That show is horrible.

Yeah you beat by 10 carlengths on that last run so I am going to need 11 carlengths so I got a shot and we are racing for slips.

PUCK THAT. Run what you brung, start at this line and 1320' later we will see who calls a cab. I wouldn't bring anything out there I wouldn't mind losing though (foxbody and run through Jegs, and Summit seems reasonable and cheap). That and I am not giving a inch.

Yeah, the only thing that program does is show you who is the best negotiator / trickster / liar. Those guys with the FC3S figured it out to a T, it was hilarious.

[SkortchGT]

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

I have no doubt of Jacks times or even 13g potential, I am just looking for my own numbers and 1 dyno would do it for me.

When playing with automatics or whatever trapspeed can be fairly consistent since it removes the human factor/error out of the equation. On the other hand with manuals trapspeed can be effected greatly by the drivers shift method and speed especially with a TC'ed car.

Trap speed is a indicator of your AVG hp over the 1320 but the more time you spend shifting can have a effect on that average. Lift to shift and what not. Also various locations will have a effect on trap speed with the amount of boost being run too in that 17 psi at 4k ft isn't the same as 17 psi at sea level and that will effect trap speed and power. I wish it were that simple but there still are alot of variables.

What I am driving at here though is a simple bolt on setup. I can't find ANY dynos, time slips (ET. or TRAP), that show a 13g car with simple bolt ons making what 13t's and 15g's do even at lower boost levels where they are suppose to be equivalent. Why is that? IDK, maybe because most 13g's out there are bastardized versions without the L turbine.

I just want 1 objective number showing a 4xx AWHP from anywhere on the planet on a stock engine, stock cams, bolt on 13g's, FP, inj's, intake, and exhaust because thats all it takes for 13t's and 15g's to get over 400 to the wheels and thats all it takes to see 116+ traps. Not that I haven't seen traps like that from 13g's but 100% of the time there is some other engine modification (heads, cams, compression), or even nitrous. Have you found any because there have to be some even across the pond where some Euro specs came stock with 13g's.

I'll have that number for ya the next time I get on the dyno.

[bjmsam]

Originally Posted by jba3

FWIW, I've done a dyno at that same shop as well. It reads pretty high. My evo with a stock block, stock head, stock turbo, stock manifold, stock FMIC, stock FMIC piping, etc ... basically, cams, head studs, and an intake/tbe/ebc ... put down 330whp on pure 93 pump gas. Their dyno is a dynojet.

Later with my evo, I added a 20g turbo (stock is 16g), a 10.5 TME hotside (stock is 9.8), turboXS fmic, solid UICP, solid LICP, exhaust manifold, o2 housing, and an open downpipe (cutout), and managed to make ... 325whp on a mustang dyno. Both runs were around 23psi. I should be able to hit 390-400 on that dynojet dyno.

A stock Evo VIII is rated at 271 flywheel horsepower. See what I mean? Chassis dyno numbers are useful only when comparing the relative power of cars measured back to back.

Originally Posted by jba3

Trap speeds will tell the story.

Agreed! Then we can get back to determining why there is a difference, if any.