13G vs. 13C Turbos

[bjmsam]

Originally Posted by lawdogg

Can you use your method of generating those compressor map comparisons to lay a 15G, 13T, and 13G map down on the same chart?

I've already posted charts for 13T vs. 13G, 15G vs. 13G and 13T vs. 15G to the Turbocharger Compressor Comparisons page. Three on one chart is pretty busy unless I axe most of the contours (see the 16T vs. 18T vs. 19T chart).

[lawdogg]

Originally Posted by bjmsam

I've already posted charts for 13T vs. 13G, 15G vs. 13G and 13T vs. 15G to the Turbocharger Compressor Comparisons page. Three on one chart is pretty busy unless I axe most of the contours (see the 16T vs. 18T vs. 19T chart).

I did not see that before. VERY cool stuff. Thanks for making all those!

Now I need to get out my pen and paper and make me some demand lines ...

[Kibwe Walker]

Those numbers are based on what?

In practice though you are hard pressed to find a 13g or even 13c car that gets over 400 to the wheels on stock heads and cams. 13t's on the other hand don't take much to cross that line as you see 4xx and 115-120 traps all the time and they are relatively new. 13g's have been out as long as the 3s platform and its hard to find any numbers like this without heads, engine work, or nitrous involved in the equation. Hard as I haven't found any today and even looking back on former members who I thought achieved such numbers turns out they had engine modifications and not just bolt on 13g's/13c's.

Unless you have a great deal on them I wouldn't recommend 13g's especially when these days you can get 13t's for the same price if not cheaper and they are that much more powerful. Maybe they shouldn't be for all practical purposes but the numbers that they kick out on average (4xx) seem to say they are. The more I look the more I stick by my original post.

I am looking for any dyno of a 13g car making more than 400 to the all 4 wheels without nitrous or engine modifications. Just bolt on turbo, IC, exhaust, injs, fp, and exhaust because thats all it takes for 13t's to get over 400 to the wheels even on pump gas 16-18 psi. The same settings is landing a 13g/13c powered car in the 350-380 mark and the difference has to be all compressor and compressor housing efficiency since the turbines are the same (L).

ESP / FFT Unichip Stage 2+ DYNO Results.

[DJAuggie]

Nice thread. It's really cool to see another option for turbos in the TD04 class (or turbos in general). I wouldn't touch them until someone else had just because the 15Gs is tried and true and the 13T is cheap and has some good results finally (Took you bitches like years... )

With that said, where did this 17PSI > race gas theory come up? With Timing controllers/FMIC/Injection (propane/alky/water)/etc.. being more and more popular, you can throw that theory out. Personally, I'd go with 13T because of the ability to expand past typical pump gas boost #s.

I've never heard of a guy on 3SI going: Man I wish I went with the smaller turbos. Well, except Innovator but he was/is/always will be a retard.

[Kibwe Walker]

IIRC Trevor and a few others went the otherway going backwards from something larger than evo3's too.

[bjmsam]

Originally Posted by DJAuggie

where did this 17PSI > race gas theory come up? With Timing controllers/FMIC/Injection (propane/alky/water)/etc.. being more and more popular, you can throw that theory out. Personally, I'd go with 13T because of the ability to expand past typical pump gas boost #s.

Those willing to make that kind of investment tend not to bother with 13 or 15 class turbos (19T and TD05 options seem most popular for that crowd).

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

you are hard pressed to find a 13g or even 13c car that gets over 400 to the wheels on stock heads and cams. 13t's on the other hand don't take much to cross that line as you see 4xx and 115-120 traps all the time and they are relatively new. 13g's have been out as long as the 3s platform and its hard to find any numbers like this without heads, engine work, or nitrous involved in the equation. Hard as I haven't found any today and even looking back on former members who I thought achieved such numbers turns out they had engine modifications and not just bolt on 13g's/13c's.

Again, dyno numbers are comparable only when the runs are back-to-back on the same dyno with the same operator. What does the demand curve look like for 400 AWHP at 14 psi? Trap speed seems to be a more consistent metric, as it removes many of the variables that impact dyno numbers and elapsed times. Speeds measured with the same model of G-Tech accelerometer would be suitable for comparison IMO. Jack's runs were surely on race gas at higher boost, so this is just an example and not particularly useful for the 17 psi comparison I proposed:

Originally Posted by xwing

...
all stats are NO nitrous in this letter, except as noted
...
13G's went 12.000 and 119.381 best mph, on 4/8/95; about 500 hp at the wheels; overall, gained about 110 hp with 13G over 9B, but given other changes 13G likely ~100 hp better than 9B.
13G best ET was 11.702 @ 118.061 on 6/6/96; this was through traps in 3rd gear, on the rev limiter. I was the first 3000GT in the 11's 5/17/95 with an 11.937@118.338. --I think 13G can be good for about 510hp at wheels maxxed out with standard stuff.

I have yet to see a satisfactory technical explanation that would substantiate the claimed performance differences at 17 psi. Perhaps it's time to move this to the Advanced Technical Discussions forum to solicit additional input?

[Kibwe Walker]

Jack also went 10's with 15g's with minimal mods+nitrous. He even had the stock DP and catback

The only thing more impressive than Jacks Times is Ray Pampena running 11 flat at 120 with 15g's without nitrous. I mean talk about your freak runs. All other times in that area have traps of 8-10 mph faster.

Still scratching my head over that one. As far as I know that car was stock weight with minimal mods and a hacked stock MAS, go figure.

As far as 13g's are concerned, I don't even need back to back, I am looking for a single dyno, anywhere on the planet where someone made 4xx to the wheels with 13g's and simple bolt ons. Just one as 13g's have been around for 10+ years while 13t's have been around for 3-4 years.

Great drivers aside 13t's and other 15g class turbos can and do make 4xx with minimal mods even at lower boost numbers. I mean the record for 13t's is 472 and that was running 22 psi on a stock engine. 20-22 psi is all it takes for 450ish WHP out of a 15g class setup and bolt ons (IC, FP, inj's, exhaust). 16-18 psi lands you in the 400-440 area based on other supporting mods.

[Kibwe Walker]

I got these in 5 minutes of searching for 13t stuff. I have looked several times today and have NOT found anything of 13g's anywhere near this. I will be happy with just 401 AWHP because I think they can do that much. Just looking for numbers from someone who has a pair. Crap Phalse ran 11.7 with a 9b/13g combo and he trapped 117ish IIRC so there has to be a dyno somewhere. You found one bjmsam?

13T's on the dyno, 445awhp 455 awtq
jrod track results
I beat my 13T record
13T Tuning -- Dyno Results Soon

[Kibwe Walker]

Phalse ran a 11.8 with a 9b/13g combo on 450 cc inj's and trapped 114 but his 60's were 1.59 and 1.6's .

http://www.3si.org/forum/f13/11s-fin...on-come-76645/

[bjmsam]

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

there has to be a dyno somewhere. You found one bjmsam?

Again, I am looking for "back-to-back quarter mile trap speeds for 13G and 13T cars with similar mods running 17 psi," not elapsed times or dyno measurements for maxed out setups. As you can see here, "freak runs" have little impact on trap speed, which is why it's a better metric for comparing power. Phalse trapped 114 mph with one TD04-9B and one TD04-13G, so Jack's consistent 118-119 mph traps with two TD04L-13Gs and little else seem reasonable, but those runs do not meet the stated criteria since they involved higher pressures and race gas.