13G vs. 13C Turbos

[Kibwe Walker]

Originally Posted by bjmsam

Huh? See here.

yeah IIRC fastoldguy has the 13g dyno record of 429 AWHP the 13t dyno record to date is 472 AWHP and over 511 lb/ft of torque.

With that both turbos are going to require a fp, inj's, IC upgrade and a AFC. The difference between the setups if going new would only be around 500 dollars tops for the difference in turbo cost and 13t's are that much more powerful. Its not a difference of 3-4k like tdo4 vs tdo5 or even 1k dollar tdo4 turbos vs a 2200 dollar tdo4 turbo for a extra 50 AWHP with more boost.

Its a 700-1300 dollar tdo4 turbo vs a 800-1200 dollar tdo4 turbo for a extra 50 AWHP at the same settings.

For the cost of a 13g you can easily afford a 13t and 13t's offer more power and litterally you can make on pump gas with 13t's what it would take race gas for 13g's to make. Years ago I may have said something different but not today. 13g's will always be a option but I won't ever recommend them when the 13t's are right next door and offer more power with great spool and response.

[bjmsam]

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

fastoldguy has the 13g dyno record of 429 AWHP the 13t dyno record to date is 472 AWHP and over 511 lb/ft of torque.

Not on pump.

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

13t's are that much more powerful

Not on pump.

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

extra 50 AWHP at the same settings

Not on pump.

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

you can make on pump gas with 13t's what it would take race gas for 13g's to make

I don't understand this claim considering both have the same TD04L turbine and both compressors are well within their efficiency ranges at pump gas pressures (for engines with typical volumetric efficiency).

[cbehnken]

for $500 get the fucking 13Gs. It isn't like you are going to lose your ass if you need to sell them in the future.

They are still a big upgrade from 9bs. Most of the people that say 13Gs suck have never ridden a 13G car and assume it is no better than stock because the attitude on here is that if you don't make 450 AWHP your car is shit.

You are giving up nothing going from 9bs to 13Gs. if your 9bs are any good you can get 200-300 just for them and you have a nice turbo upgrade for almost nothing.

What is also hilarious is how the same people who say 13Gs suck will say that DR500s are the bomb. Granted DR500s can make a bit more power, but to hear them talk you think the difference was 100AWHP.

[bjmsam]

Originally Posted by cbehnken

DR500s can make a bit more power

Not on pump.

TD04-13Gs and TD04-13Cs (used/modified for ~$500) are good options for those on a budget.
TD04L-13Gs (factory fresh for $1099 shipped) are a great option for those who want OEM reliability.
TD04L-13Ts (used/modified for $1000 + S&H) are a great option for those who want to run more boost.

[cbehnken]

Originally Posted by bjmsam

Not on pump.

TD04-13Gs and TD04-13Cs (used/modified for ~$500) are good options for those on a budget.
TD04L-13Gs (factory fresh for $1099 shipped) are a great option for those who want OEM reliability.
TD04L-13Ts (used/modified for $1000 + S&H) are a great option for those who want to run more boost.

AFAIK the DR500 is clipped. This should help on pump.

[bjmsam]

Originally Posted by cbehnken

AFAIK the DR500 is clipped. This should help on pump.

How is a clipped TD04 turbine better than an unclipped TD04L turbine on pump?

[cbehnken]

Originally Posted by bjmsam

How is a clipped TD04 turbine better than an unclipped TD04L turbine on pump?

You act like the TD04L turbine is a lot bigger or something. Unless these figures are wrong:

Exducer Inducer
TD04 1.57 1.86
TD04L 1.62 1.86

The 5 hundredths difference is not going to help as much as the clipping at high flow levels.

Edit: unless the L turbine is much taller.

[Kibwe Walker]

Originally Posted by bjmsam

not on pump

Maybe all the 13g numbers I have seen are the bastardized stock turbine but typically with 13g's guys put down 350-380 AWHP @ 15 psi (just say 375 for the high side).

Fastoldguy (429) and the 472 13t record were both RACE gas dyno numbers. There are members here though with 13t's that hit 400-430 AWHP on PUMP GAS while the 13g record is 429 on RACE GAS. 20-22 psi is generally what is needed to hit 450ish AWHP with a 15g class turbo

13g's will hold 17 psi to redline max
13t's I have seen on my own car hold 24 psi to redline while laying a nice 4w burn out in its wake. Eugene held 26 psi on stock IC's with his 13t's.

I have ridden in a 13g powered car and drove one, I have 13t powered car and a 9b powered car. Honestly I wouldn't tell anyone to get 13g's when you can get 13t's for the same price. If you land on some 500 dollar turbos and you are on a budget, good BUT if you are paying the typical 700-1300 dollars for 13g's, do yourself a favor and get some 13t's for the same price as they are that much more powerful.

I don't think anyone here is saying a 13g and 13t's are equivalent because they are not. For the same relative price why wouldn't the 13t's be the better choice as they spool up great. I haven't found anyone with a set that can call them laggy or not responsive, and they make great power even at 18/19 psi which is all I want out of them. I feel they make more here than a 13g car at this boost levels because 13g's can NOT even hold this to redline (outside their efficiency range).

I was playing around with different octanes and threw in 4 gallons of e 85 which I figured brought my overall octane up to about 96ish when mixed with 16 gallons of 93 octane. Anyways I turned up my boost to 18 psi and went out tuning one morning with the wife. OH @$#%. Her comment was why is it so fast now as she graps the door handle for support? Later during the week before that tank was done I came across a yellow c6 (nonzo6) and coming back from murfreesboro I walked him fairly well. I was about 1.5-2 carlengths out going from 3rd to 4th where he quit. Those cars typically trap 116-118 and I was pulling one from a roll in my 93. So I am pretty content with these 13t's at that setting the car was on the verge of burning out anytime you went WOT in 1st meaning you better have it pointed straight or it would break them loose.

Years ago I asked Fastoldguy (13g record holder) about his Hunting Power with 13g's? Or basically the ability to pull cars from behind with 13g's (03/04 cobras and the likes of). After his response I went with 13t's since if he had to do it over again he would go with 15g's. Hindsight is always 20/20 but I learned from him and other 13g owners who say I should have gone bigger. I have 15g power with 13g spool and response (AKA 13t's). I paid 1100 already converted with less than 3k miles from another board member, Installation, who went tdo5's. Since I have had them I have been able to pull most anything I have tried though I did get worked by a modded GTO a few weeks back. Don't know what that guy had but the car was nice (black with everything blacked out) and it was loud enough to be heard over my own straight through plumbing at WOT from 4 lanes over with my windows up so who knows what it had. It was nice though I got the initial jump but at about 70 he was clearly pulling me.

[bjmsam]

Originally Posted by cbehnken

Exducer Inducer
TD04 1.57 1.86
TD04L 1.62 1.86

Here are the sizes I have seen:

TD04: 1.550 / 1.812
TD04L: 1.625 / 1.860

Can someone please measure and confirm?

Originally Posted by Kibwe Walker

[13Ts] make great power even at 18/19 psi which is all I want out of them. I feel they make more here than a 13g car at this boost levels because 13g's can NOT even hold this to redline (outside their efficiency range).

13Ts are a better option for high VE setups that can accommodate more than 17 psi at redline on pump gas.

The rest of your post is entertaining but anecdotal. What are back-to-back quarter mile trap speeds for 13G and 13T cars with similar mods running 17 psi (which many consider a reasonable pump gas maximum)? Engine demand lines superimposed on the combined compressor flow maps suggest no significant difference.

[Kibwe Walker]

Originally Posted by bjmsam

Here are the sizes I have seen:

TD04: 1.550 / 1.812
TD04L: 1.625 / 1.860

Can someone please measure and confirm?


13Ts are a better option for high VE setups that can accommodate more than 17 psi at redline on pump gas.

The rest of your post is entertaining but anecdotal. What are back-to-back quarter mile trap speeds for 13G and 13T cars with similar mods running 17 psi (which many consider a reasonable pump gas maximum)? Engine demand lines superimposed on the combined compressor flow maps suggest no significant difference.

Sometimes practice beats out theory. In theory they should be the same with 100% VE demand lines but in practice I haven't found any numbers that say they are. Even at 16/17 psi the 13t's seem to make more power crossing that 400 AWHP line.

Fastest 13g or 13c time I know of with no Nitrous is Matt Monet who ran 11.59 @ 117 with stage 3 heads, street cams, CFDS, aluminum FW, and volk racing wheels.

Typicalstate guy went 12.15 or something around there with stage 2 heads and dr500's.

Jet, JRod, Maddog, and anyone who has gone to the track with 13t's running 18 psi or more has seen high 11's to low 12's with traps in the 116-120 area. There are a few with low 4xx's on pump gas with 13t's running 16-18 psi then again thats all driver skill. I have been searching now that you bring it up and I am looking for a 13g setup that has hit 4xx on pump gas. I remember darthstimpy made 417 with dr500's on a custom unichip stock heads and cam IIRC setup running 18.5 psi. Don't know of any 13g setups to do it though.

Found lanes old thread What is the 13g horse power record?