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VR4 vs new GTR "supercar"!?

25K views 86 replies 36 participants last post by  starquest 2875 
#1 · (Edited)
Your first thought when seeing this thread title was probably something like "LOL! no comparison" You might want to think again.. the platforms are virtually identicle except for 160hp difference. 3 liter V6, twin turbos, AWD same weight, even same skid pad numbers!

GTR 2012*******99 VR4

3,800 LBS**********3,737 LBS

480 hp************320 hp

430 torq***********315 torq

1/4th 11.8 @118mph**1/4th 13.9 @102mph

0-60 3.8************0-60 5.5

Skidpad .93G*********Skidpad .90G

-----------------------------------------

The numbers just don't add up..

The VR4 is widly criticized on forums as being a
"whale" and virtually too heavy to compete as a real sports
car in stock form. They also admittedly call it a "grand touring" car
more then anything. HOWEVER.. It weights less then "Godzilla" GTR
that is considered one of the best supercars made..!?

Also the power numbers on our cars are a little strange.. Supposedly we have 320HP however the GTR with ONLY 160 hp more can go 0-60 in 3.8 seconds compared to our 5.5. However the most disturbing is 1/4th mile times. The GTR runs the 1/4th in just 12 seconds @ 118mph compared to our 14 seconds @ 102mph.

What im getting at is how can just 160hp drop 2 seconds off the quartermile time!?

Why do people call our cars grand touring due to the weight when the GTR is a "supercar" running a very similar platform that weights more.

So according to the data if we do a small turbo upgrade and get another 160 hp theoretically we will be just as fast as a newer GTR! From grand touring to Godzilla. Hard to believe..
 
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#2 ·
Vr4s are eons behind the gtr in technology, there is zero comparison between the 2 cars.
 
#4 ·
Other than the weight and skid test the GTR trumps the vr4 in every way how is that a comparison?
 
#12 ·
because if you add 160hp to the VR you will have the same or very similar 1/4th mile times. I know the VR is a dyno but that's nothing a good set of suspension and brakes couldn't fix along some bolt ons to make the extra power. Even with stock suspension its still holding similarly on the skid pad against all that new technology.
 
#5 ·
Different gear ratio and have you ever driven a car thats the same weight plus 160 more hp? thats a BIG difference. Plus the gtr has a 3.5 so down low it has more power as well, put a 3.5 with 15g's in our car and no one will think its slow.


Coop
 
#6 ·
For being a supercar the gtr isn't really all that much. Like the op says, our cars can come close to the speeds of gtrs with a turbo upgrade. To be able to keep up with a gtr by only upgrading turbos is pretty cool. Especially for the price of the gtr .
 
#7 ·
I'm sure the gtr can put down like 500awhp on stock turbos lol. Sure 9bs wont get you there. the gtr is just so much better in so many ways imo . And besides the fact the you have a 11 sec car right of the box were as a 3s stock is what high 13s with a good driver so make that 14s. Oh and the 0 to 60 mph is no comparison.
 
#13 ·
As said before the 1/4 mile probably has to do with displacement and gearing - doesn't the GTR have paddle shifting too?

Anyway, the likes of Pampena, Monet and many others have laid out the recipe ffor a 10 sec car with minimal mods. I've always planned to follow it it and irritate the GTR/C6 crowd with a 20 year old car.

When they start modding it's a different story....
 
#14 · (Edited)
DR650s/bolt on mods. I ran my billet DR650s @16 psi and that was fast --- pulled out the hole quick then I raised it to 22psi and OMG! My engine is sitting in garage ready to b reinstalled and finally the new times will be out. new rings new seals so no more smoking(yes)!I've beat C5s and some V8 fire birds with mods. Don't know there

QUOTE=Keo92stealth;6518538]I'm sure the gtr can put down like 500awhp on stock turbos lol. Sure 9bs wont get you there. the gtr is just so much better in so many ways imo . And besides the fact the you have a 11 sec car right of the box were as a 3s stock is what high 13s with a good driver so make that 14s. Oh and the 0 to 60 mph is no comparison.[/QUOTE]
 
#16 · (Edited)
Fyi the gtr weighs around 4000 curb if fully loaded with options, like the alacantra leather ( which is reaaally nice, both back and front seats hugged my butt, but its like the factory wanted to cup me gently, softly, sweetly) +1 for anyone of recognizes the tenacious d reference

99 vr4 puts out a mid to low 13, not a 14 sec 1/4 unless you can't drive. Hell i ran a 14.5 with my stock 97 shifting from 1st to 3rd bc i got locked out of 2nd. Tranny was not happy that day

Mechanically speaking, the gtr only has 3 MAJOR mechanically involved things that seperate it out of the box performance against the stock 3s and would take thousands to get a 3s equivelant

3.8L engine vs 3.0- more broad tq curve and can support bigger turbos- we can compensate with billet td04's to make our tq curves match, but they can step into bigger turbos and stilk have a useable powerband with more power output over out biggest td04

Suspension- ours is old, and meant to be more cushy for cross country travel, theirs is factory race grade to compete with other 100k supercars like the 600hp v10 3300lb viper or c7 550+hp ls9 powered vette weighing in at 3200- both which make the gtr look fat on paper, thr gtr makes up for its weight by sticking to the road well.

Gearing/trans- the paddle shift multiclutch is a tranny to behold. Most people knock on auto transmissions, but built auto transmissions are what serious drag racers use due to consistant shifting, no gear lockout, no room for human error, and with a shift time of .08-10 sec, they're very fast. The gtr's transmission behaves in this regard, and has had the breaking issues addressed with the launch control. Additionally their gearing is a bit tighter to utilize the awd systems better for acceleration vs our hwy cruiser gearing.

A gtr however is definitely within reach of a 3s, it will take turbos, tires, and perhaps coilovers, and a stock engine vr4 could hang and beat a stock gtr with a 19t and bigger upgrade with meth, if they upgrade, then start looking at engine work/trsnny work and a t3 kit to get more serious. When modding cars, virtually any car is within the realm of possibility, depending on what you want to spend.

A gtr comparatively on the 3s modding cycle is like a 3s with a small twin t3 kit or twin e3 16g's, 3.8 stroker kit, welded and braced tranny and full suspension- out of the factory box. Just another level of serious- nothing people can't get to with their modding plans.

Rambling on those aside, the weight thing for the 3s has died down some, people still find em sexy, and know that they can get quick with a little time invested. I havent seen anything recent on ppl knocking them anyway, and even of they were, I wouldn't worry abt it. Thar's hp to be found in them thar cars.
 
#18 ·
Seriously ? I mean ..... Seriously serious ? Lol. Check out supercar engineering LSDs. It walks all over the GTR like child play.

GTR ? It proves you have money, and is a newer platform. To mod a GTR you will need insanely deep pocket. If you buy stock it is almost 100k.

Facts, if you mod your 3s decently by a pro shop...says, RAY PAMPENA shop. GTR look like a kitty to you.

The only other thing GTR can sprint to 60mph so quickly is because of their advanced computer and traction control.

With 60k into a VR4. The stock GTR is cake. Bad part is...no warranty. Who the heck need warranty if your VR4 is cheaper to fix and maintain ?

Fact. It needs 20 years to catch up with Stock GTR ....what about a GTR in the next 20 years ?

Well who care....Toyota is supposed to release a new generation SUPRA in the range of 50-60k....oh and it wont be hybrid.
 
#20 ·
For someone with 65k to blow and has their mind set on a used GTR, they would be hard pressed to jump into a 20 y/o car with 3+ previous owners that beat the living dogggg SHIT out of it.

People with corvette Z06 money dont buy SRT4's to build bolt-on kings. Doesnt work like that..

The GTR has a HUGE head start on a vr4 in terms of existing technology and amount of $$ they spent on R&D. They have a bigger engine (3.8 not 3.5 lol) and all the factory hardware is capable of supporting 550hp (turbos, cams, fuel system)

Look at a stock vr4 dyno and a GTR dyno. Even though the GTR makes 100 more HP, it makes it where it counts (up top). All we can do is kill people with our incredible mid-range power and hope they give up when we hit 3rd lol

Not to mention the fact that it has a ridiculously expensive suspension and all kinds of electrical wizardry going on inside.

They did that car RIGHT.
 
#21 ·
For someone with 65k to blow and has their mind set on a used GTR, they would be hard pressed to jump into a 20 y/o car with 3+ previous owners that beat the living dogggg SHIT out of it.

People with corvette Z06 money dont buy SRT4's to build bolt-on kings. Doesnt work like that..
That is so True. But I wouldn't go for a Used GTR either...lol. There are more to choose from for used car.

This is exactly the reason why I have stopped modding anymore...I mean 19T s enough to enjoy the territory of GTR
 
#24 ·
DR-650's and supporting mods. A clutch. Will be about 8-10k in parts and suggested maintenance.
 
#26 ·
What im getting at is how can just 160hp drop 2 seconds off the quartermile time!?

Why do people call our cars grand touring due to the weight when the GTR is a "supercar" running a very similar platform that weights more.

So according to the data if we do a small turbo upgrade and get another 160 hp theoretically we will be just as fast as a newer GTR! From grand touring to Godzilla. Hard to believe..
As far as quarter mile time, it's not just the HP that counts. Launch control and near instantaneous shifts are a huge factor in ET. The MPH is where the power comparison can be made.

As was said about the grand touring, our cars didn't come with enough HP to be considered anything else at this weight. Granted, people exaggerate the issue.

Shouldn't be hard to believe. If someone has a fast shifting auto, 460 flywheel hp, a weight of 3700-3800lbs, and the ability to get off the line, in ANY car, it will run that time. It's not magic.
 
#27 · (Edited)
I have already proven that a pre-2012 GTR vs a VR4 on 15G is a very, extremely close race, I lost by less than half a car, you could say a nose... and although my car is lightened up, minus aero/spare, jack/aws and interior was out when I raced... I am a heavy son of a gun, at the time of that race my car was barely pushing 410awhp straight pump from a dyno on a hot ass 90 degree day, Once again, the GTR is a true sports car (an ugly one) but nonetheless a sports car, the VR4 was built to be a GT car, not a quarter mile buster, do I think the GTR is overpriced? yes, do I think the VR4 is a better car? no, but the weight argument needs to end.

the day I raced I had put in some race gas however so I have no idea if that raised the power output any, all I know is that the poofster thought he was gonna get away but I chased his ass down and almost passed him, I think the GTR was grossly overrated prior to 2012, the newer ones have supposedly over 500awhp but this is measured at the crank, just like the new mustangs say they have 400hp and they can't hold a candle to a 15G or 19T VR4 in a million years... one thing though, the new mustangs are definitely more comfortable than a VR4, please take into account that I shift faster than a jack rabbit on ecstasy with a bowl of redbull, shift forks have been destroyed by me before

PS; I never want to read a post by someone stating that he likes the way the seats hug his butt... you hear me Arm0red? due to the fact that I do not want to buy another keyboard so soon after this one today, contrary to popular thought, hot cocoa and keyboard = bad idea
 
#28 ·
Think I'de rather talk about guns than this old chestnut. :p

You just can't compare the two. Saying "all you need to do is...." is pointless. A stock GT-R vs a stock Vr4 is chalk and cheese. Yes, you can bolt on a few minor mods and additions and get close to the GT-R but what happens when you do the same to the GT-R? You will get embarrassed! When doing comparisons, you need to be fair. If your argument is, "you can spend less money to make a VR4 faster than a GT-R? then you will have something, but most people already know that. I consider my GTO a supercar. I've seen quite a few World Supercars books which will back me up.

Scotty
 
#29 · (Edited)
Yea, I agree. That's why I said when they start modding (C6/GTR/Viper crowd) it's a different story.

There is a reason why people migrate from the 3s platform to like a C6 when they're looking to up their craving for tame to serious modding within a reasonable budget. Those that stick to the 3s do so for the love of car.

Modding a 3s with DR650/DR750 and supporting mods will get you performance numbers near or better than said cars stock and get you some respect with your daily cruise. Plus you don't have to shell out a butt load of coin to do it.

There's a reason why you don't see too many 3s/NSX/300ZX/RX7 in the onepercent videos at that airfield that are posted here every once in a while. Hard to get that performance with 90's Japenese sports cars. Maybe the Supra could get close.

Here's one thing I don't like about the newer cars - big brother black box. I guess if you got the cash at those levels to mod, you're not really worried about warranty and all that. Don't know if GM is doing that, but definatly Nissan is.

I find the performance to value to be better on the 3s compared to any other platform. I'm fine with 500awhp with bolt-ons with a budget aroudn $10k. 500awph is fast car and pretty reliable, as already proven by the experienced on this platform.
 
#32 ·
I think the biggest difference in 1/4 mile times constitutes to the fact that the transmission shifts in what? .1 seconds? Think about how fast a "decent" driver can shift a synchronized car? .3-.4 seconds per shift? Thats about .9 seconds just in shifting in a quarter mile. There is your huge 1/4 mile difference.
 
#33 ·
Umm, your car doesnt come to a screeching halt when you shift gears, you are still rolling, all the time spent shifting isnt added to the E.T. as a 1:1 ratio....

Learn to drive if you want to compete. Its that simple.
 
#49 · (Edited)
Time spent shifting is time the car is not under power and accelerating. Its simple physics, why do you think auto cars run similar times to most stick cars are usually trapping 10+mph less?


Heres my DSM getting a run in with a modded GT-R, (Ivey Tune, midpipes, intakes) The GT-R went 10.90 bone stock its kind of a freak I guess. They were trying to bully me into racing it before when I had a lot less mods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fph9z0LazE

But listen to how fast the GT-R flying threw the gears it almost sounds like 1 consistent gear? I honestly don't know anything but a dog engagement trans that will shift close to that fast.

I was really just addressing the OPs question as to how 160HP difference can equate to 2 seconds faster in the 1/4
 
#34 ·
Doesn't matter how good you are built autos will still be faster in regards to shifting.
 
#39 ·
I didnt say the autos werent faster, I said slow shifting doesnt add the same amount of time you spent shifting to your E.T.
 
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