Misfires and/or Hesitation between 2500-2900 rpm
Here is a brief summary of the 19 pages of posts in this thread:
If I am accelerating/cruising/revving in neutral, in the 2500 - 2900 rpm range, the car misses/hesitates, epecially @ 2600 rpm. I have made numerous logs of the issue and here is what I've found:
O2 Trim:
At 2450 rpm, the O2 trim starts to increase from normal (~100)
By 2600 rpm, the O2 trim hits 168 (max).
By 2800 rpm, the O2 trim starts to come back down
By 2950 rpm, the O2 trim is back to normal (~100)
If I add more fuel (14 - 17%) to bring the O2 trims back down to ~ 100, it still misses.
RPM & Timing:
If I rev the car in neutral, timing and RPM will plateau briefly once it gets to 2700 rpm. If I have the exhaust in sport mode, I'll hear a loud pop when it misses.
Knock:
While revving in neutral, more often than not, I'll see 1 - 2 counts of knock when it misses. During cruise, but more often during light accel, I'll occasionally see sustained knock counts of 1 - 2 counts from 2600 - 3000 rpm (total knock sum of ~ 10 - 12).
WOT:
Despite adding extra fuel, I'll still see a brief lean spike in the 2600 - 3000 rpm range when it misses. The lean spot, secondary to the miss, occurs simultaneously on the front and rear banks. The miss is less noticeable at WOT, but it is definitely still there.
Race Gas:
While revving in neutral and/or cruising between 2600 - 3000 rpm I see occasional counts of knock (ie. in neutral 1 - 2 counts and while cruising 1 - 2 counts continuously with a total sum of ~ 10 - 12). I believe this is "phantom knock" and perhaps the knock sensor is picking up the misses and confusing it with knock?? Alternatively, maybe this is related to my noisy rear valvetrain?
Methanol:
1) While revving in neutral, normally the rpm and timing plateau @ 2700 rpm when it misses. While manually spraying meth the car revs smoothly and there is no plateau in the rpm and timing.
2) Normally, while cruising @ 2700 rpm, the car misses constantly and the timing fluctuates +/- 1* at a fairly rapid pace. As soon as I start spraying meth the missing stops and the timing holds rock solid.
This information points to a fueling issue/air and not a spark issue.
Things I've tried to fix the problem:
1) Hotwired Supra fuel pump.
2) Disconnected stock FP relay
3) New PTE 580 cc injectors. Matched & flow tested x 2
4) Aftermarket FPR in a dual feed configuration
5) Aftermarket Fuel filter & SS braided lines
6) New ECU (used) - known to be good.
7) New OEM coils & PTU
8) Wires x 3 (Accel, NGK & now MSD)
9) Plugs gapped to 0.028 x 4 sets (NGK Coppers, NGK non-resistors, NGK iridiums and now Denso IK27s)
10) GM MAF & MAFTransltor (No longer use stock MAF)
11) Checked resistance of CAS
12) Checked resistance of PTU
13) Checked Resistance of Fuel injector resistor pack.
14) Checked compression. All cylinders are between 142 - 149 psi
15) Sent oil away for analysis x 3. Everything checks out except iron was slightly higher than average (20 ppm). June 2008:High levels of iron resolved on their own after using Amsoil 20W50. Therefore, this is not related to the missing.
16) Vac. line reduction & emissions delete
17) Disconnected TPS. No effect. Subsequently reconnected.
18) Disconnected O2 sensors and cruised around in open loop. No effect on the missing. If anything it seemed to get worse.
19) New OEM ISC
20) Increased base timing to 10*. Made the miss _feel_ less noticeable. Definitely still there, no change in the logs.
21) HKS DLI - No effect on the missing.
22) New Optima Yellow Top battery
23) All Rubycon caps in ECU & ECS changed. Traces in the location of Rubycon caps verified.
24) ECS disconnected. No change.
Things that made the problem worse/more noticeable:
1) Lightweight aluminum flywheel.
2) GM MAF in blow through?
Things others have tried that I have not:
1) Changed engine bottom end
2) Changed out noisy lifters.
2) Swapped fuel injector resistor pack
Strange things I've noticed:
1) While cruising @ ~ 2700 rpm it misses continuously. This is coupled with very slight pressure fluctations, (ie. +/- 1 cm Hg). However, once in a while there is an unusually large "miss" and the car lurges a bit and I'll see a relatively large manifold pressure spike, measured with an electronic boost gauge (ie. from -10cm Hg to 0.00 and then back to -10cm Hg). These pressure spikes are seen by the GM MAF as changes in air flow, ie. during the small pressure fluctuations AF readings oscillated +/- 30hz and during the large pressure spikes AF readings oscillated +/- 100Hz. I believe this could be a separate issue, ie. surging? It has been described here http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/all-surging-problems-316380/
2) If I cold start the car and then rev it up in neutral, it revs smoothly through the entire rpm range. Once the car gets warm, ie. coolant temp of > 120 - 130* F it starts to miss. On the other hand, if I try and drive the car right away when it is still cold, it'll still miss in the 2500 - 2900 rpm range. In fact it misses horribly when I drive it when it is cold. At times it will literally fall on its face once it gets to 2600 rpm. I think this has to do with the ECU adding extra fuel while the car is warming up and this effectively masks the problem.
3) Hot start problem. Car has a hard time starting when hot. However, if I run the pump, for ~ 30 seconds using the check connector), it starts up easily, however, it stills wants to run extremely lean and rough (as if its missing). If I try and rev it up in neutral, I can't get the rpms above 2600 rpm because of the missing. Makes me wonder if there is something under the hood, which is sensitive to heat, causing the missing and/or lean condition. This issue probably isn't helped by the fact that I'm using a MAFTranslator that feeds a fixed temp signal and I have deleted the FPR solenoid.
4) Jumpy OEM tach in the 2500 - 3000 rpm range (esp. @ 2600) while accelerating. Also noticed the tach in logs looks jumpy @ WOT throughout the entire RPM range. Unaffected by installation of HKS DLI.
5) Occasional low load sustained knock while gently accelerating @ ~ 2600 rpm. Occurs with/without the EGR connected. See up to a 12 counts of sustained knock, which continues despite 7* of timing being pulled by the ECU. Seems to continue until I take my foot off the gas. I believe this is phantom knock as it was not cured by running race gas.
7) Loud ticking from my rear valve cover, in the area around cylinder 2. I have 99 lifters, so it shouldn't be lifter tick. In addition, it sounds louder than lifter tick. I've sent my oil away for analysis and they've verified that it isn't rod knock.
8) When I rev the car in neutral, while keeping the throttle position constant, the rpms gradually increase until it gets to ~ 2700 rpm. Then it stumbles, the rpms drop to 2500 rpm and then the cycle repeats itself. If I give it enough gas, it'll eventually make it over the hiccup, until it reaches 3000 rpm and then the same thing happens again. It also wants to do it at 3500 rpm. Its only once I get over 4000 rpm that it revs gradually and smoothly.
9) Rich idle (new for 2008). When it is hot outside or if the car is really hot I get a terribly rich idle. The instantaneous O2 trim pegs out a 32 and the AFR sits at around 10.5. The result of this was 2.3% fuel dilution in my oil, which effectively made my Amsoil 20W50 into 10W40.
July 2008: Lifted my heads and pushed all of the coolant out around piston #3. Piston jammed itself in the cylinder, the bottom of the piston was torn off and the free rod bashed the block to bits. Currently rebuilding and estimated date of completion is May 2010. Hoping this problem doesn't continue.
Things I'm planning on trying when I get the cash:
1) Buying & installing an AEM EMS.
Any suggestions/ideas would be _greatly appreciated_.
Here is a brief summary of the 19 pages of posts in this thread:
If I am accelerating/cruising/revving in neutral, in the 2500 - 2900 rpm range, the car misses/hesitates, epecially @ 2600 rpm. I have made numerous logs of the issue and here is what I've found:
O2 Trim:
At 2450 rpm, the O2 trim starts to increase from normal (~100)
By 2600 rpm, the O2 trim hits 168 (max).
By 2800 rpm, the O2 trim starts to come back down
By 2950 rpm, the O2 trim is back to normal (~100)
If I add more fuel (14 - 17%) to bring the O2 trims back down to ~ 100, it still misses.
RPM & Timing:
If I rev the car in neutral, timing and RPM will plateau briefly once it gets to 2700 rpm. If I have the exhaust in sport mode, I'll hear a loud pop when it misses.
Knock:
While revving in neutral, more often than not, I'll see 1 - 2 counts of knock when it misses. During cruise, but more often during light accel, I'll occasionally see sustained knock counts of 1 - 2 counts from 2600 - 3000 rpm (total knock sum of ~ 10 - 12).
WOT:
Despite adding extra fuel, I'll still see a brief lean spike in the 2600 - 3000 rpm range when it misses. The lean spot, secondary to the miss, occurs simultaneously on the front and rear banks. The miss is less noticeable at WOT, but it is definitely still there.
Race Gas:
While revving in neutral and/or cruising between 2600 - 3000 rpm I see occasional counts of knock (ie. in neutral 1 - 2 counts and while cruising 1 - 2 counts continuously with a total sum of ~ 10 - 12). I believe this is "phantom knock" and perhaps the knock sensor is picking up the misses and confusing it with knock?? Alternatively, maybe this is related to my noisy rear valvetrain?
Methanol:
1) While revving in neutral, normally the rpm and timing plateau @ 2700 rpm when it misses. While manually spraying meth the car revs smoothly and there is no plateau in the rpm and timing.
2) Normally, while cruising @ 2700 rpm, the car misses constantly and the timing fluctuates +/- 1* at a fairly rapid pace. As soon as I start spraying meth the missing stops and the timing holds rock solid.
This information points to a fueling issue/air and not a spark issue.
Things I've tried to fix the problem:
1) Hotwired Supra fuel pump.
2) Disconnected stock FP relay
3) New PTE 580 cc injectors. Matched & flow tested x 2
4) Aftermarket FPR in a dual feed configuration
5) Aftermarket Fuel filter & SS braided lines
6) New ECU (used) - known to be good.
7) New OEM coils & PTU
8) Wires x 3 (Accel, NGK & now MSD)
9) Plugs gapped to 0.028 x 4 sets (NGK Coppers, NGK non-resistors, NGK iridiums and now Denso IK27s)
10) GM MAF & MAFTransltor (No longer use stock MAF)
11) Checked resistance of CAS
12) Checked resistance of PTU
13) Checked Resistance of Fuel injector resistor pack.
14) Checked compression. All cylinders are between 142 - 149 psi
15) Sent oil away for analysis x 3. Everything checks out except iron was slightly higher than average (20 ppm). June 2008:High levels of iron resolved on their own after using Amsoil 20W50. Therefore, this is not related to the missing.
16) Vac. line reduction & emissions delete
17) Disconnected TPS. No effect. Subsequently reconnected.
18) Disconnected O2 sensors and cruised around in open loop. No effect on the missing. If anything it seemed to get worse.
19) New OEM ISC
20) Increased base timing to 10*. Made the miss _feel_ less noticeable. Definitely still there, no change in the logs.
21) HKS DLI - No effect on the missing.
22) New Optima Yellow Top battery
23) All Rubycon caps in ECU & ECS changed. Traces in the location of Rubycon caps verified.
24) ECS disconnected. No change.
Things that made the problem worse/more noticeable:
1) Lightweight aluminum flywheel.
2) GM MAF in blow through?
Things others have tried that I have not:
1) Changed engine bottom end
2) Changed out noisy lifters.
2) Swapped fuel injector resistor pack
Strange things I've noticed:
1) While cruising @ ~ 2700 rpm it misses continuously. This is coupled with very slight pressure fluctations, (ie. +/- 1 cm Hg). However, once in a while there is an unusually large "miss" and the car lurges a bit and I'll see a relatively large manifold pressure spike, measured with an electronic boost gauge (ie. from -10cm Hg to 0.00 and then back to -10cm Hg). These pressure spikes are seen by the GM MAF as changes in air flow, ie. during the small pressure fluctuations AF readings oscillated +/- 30hz and during the large pressure spikes AF readings oscillated +/- 100Hz. I believe this could be a separate issue, ie. surging? It has been described here http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/all-surging-problems-316380/
2) If I cold start the car and then rev it up in neutral, it revs smoothly through the entire rpm range. Once the car gets warm, ie. coolant temp of > 120 - 130* F it starts to miss. On the other hand, if I try and drive the car right away when it is still cold, it'll still miss in the 2500 - 2900 rpm range. In fact it misses horribly when I drive it when it is cold. At times it will literally fall on its face once it gets to 2600 rpm. I think this has to do with the ECU adding extra fuel while the car is warming up and this effectively masks the problem.
3) Hot start problem. Car has a hard time starting when hot. However, if I run the pump, for ~ 30 seconds using the check connector), it starts up easily, however, it stills wants to run extremely lean and rough (as if its missing). If I try and rev it up in neutral, I can't get the rpms above 2600 rpm because of the missing. Makes me wonder if there is something under the hood, which is sensitive to heat, causing the missing and/or lean condition. This issue probably isn't helped by the fact that I'm using a MAFTranslator that feeds a fixed temp signal and I have deleted the FPR solenoid.
4) Jumpy OEM tach in the 2500 - 3000 rpm range (esp. @ 2600) while accelerating. Also noticed the tach in logs looks jumpy @ WOT throughout the entire RPM range. Unaffected by installation of HKS DLI.
5) Occasional low load sustained knock while gently accelerating @ ~ 2600 rpm. Occurs with/without the EGR connected. See up to a 12 counts of sustained knock, which continues despite 7* of timing being pulled by the ECU. Seems to continue until I take my foot off the gas. I believe this is phantom knock as it was not cured by running race gas.
7) Loud ticking from my rear valve cover, in the area around cylinder 2. I have 99 lifters, so it shouldn't be lifter tick. In addition, it sounds louder than lifter tick. I've sent my oil away for analysis and they've verified that it isn't rod knock.
8) When I rev the car in neutral, while keeping the throttle position constant, the rpms gradually increase until it gets to ~ 2700 rpm. Then it stumbles, the rpms drop to 2500 rpm and then the cycle repeats itself. If I give it enough gas, it'll eventually make it over the hiccup, until it reaches 3000 rpm and then the same thing happens again. It also wants to do it at 3500 rpm. Its only once I get over 4000 rpm that it revs gradually and smoothly.
9) Rich idle (new for 2008). When it is hot outside or if the car is really hot I get a terribly rich idle. The instantaneous O2 trim pegs out a 32 and the AFR sits at around 10.5. The result of this was 2.3% fuel dilution in my oil, which effectively made my Amsoil 20W50 into 10W40.
July 2008: Lifted my heads and pushed all of the coolant out around piston #3. Piston jammed itself in the cylinder, the bottom of the piston was torn off and the free rod bashed the block to bits. Currently rebuilding and estimated date of completion is May 2010. Hoping this problem doesn't continue.
Things I'm planning on trying when I get the cash:
1) Buying & installing an AEM EMS.
Any suggestions/ideas would be _greatly appreciated_.